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The question is too broad really. You need to consider each job on its own mertis. Lumping all public sector employees together under one question of what represents fair pay is an overly simplistic view. edit: jeez. My posts are an english free zone tonight |
Public sector pay overhaul planned • Page 3
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chopsen 21,958 posts
Seen 10 hours ago
Registered 16 years ago -
chopsen 21,958 posts
Seen 10 hours ago
Registered 16 years agoIs that someone who puts up scaffolding? -
mwtb 2,381 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 17 years agoDaisyD wrote:
What do you think a decent wage should be for a police officer? Or maybe a nurse?
I'm not sure if you think this is some sort of trick question or not, but I don't see why you're being so evasive considering you started the thread. I've already said that the existing teacher salary spread doesn't look awful to me, it just depends on how reachable the upper levels really are.
If I consider a general skilled job, a 20-25K starting range with progression through to 25-35K within 3-5 years and potential to reach 35-50K through promotion or exceptional performance seems a sort of template set of salary levels. However, I'm genuinely interested in what people actually think the salaries should be as that's the root of the question, surely? -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 20 years agoA scaffie is what we call binmen in Aberdeen. -
DaisyD 11,816 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 16 years agomwtb wrote:
You'e not far off for police, but promotion i only by exams and there are limited spaces on the exams nowadays. Also, the money is not that high on promotion, neither is long service in the same rank. Nurses get paid less than that. However that money does expect you to work shifts all times of the day and night and be excluded from parts of the workin time directive. Also if police don't like new pay deals, they can't strike because they'll end up in prison. Oh and don't forget the risk of assaults. I've never met anyone who's been in the job more than ayear who hasn't been assaulted. I certainly have. Now compare it to someone working in IT at a desk 9 to 5 on £30k. Is it a fair wage?
DaisyD wrote:
What do you think a decent wage should be for a police officer? Or maybe a nurse?
I'm not sure if you think this is some sort of trick question or not, but I don't see why you're being so evasive considering you started the thread. I've already said that the existing teacher salary spread doesn't look awful to me, it just depends on how reachable the upper levels really are.
If I consider a general skilled job, a 20-25K starting range with progression through to 25-35K within 3-5 years and potential to reach 35-50K through promotion or exceptional performance seems a sort of template set of salary levels. However, I'm genuinely interested in what people actually think the salaries should be as that's the root of the question, surely? -
mwtb 2,381 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 17 years agoThere is no fair wage for being assaulted, just as there's no fair wage for a teacher or a nurse getting abuse or even your IT guy getting RSI or going quietly mad in a desk job. They're just unpleasant realities of the career. Do police salaries seem fair to me as a member of the general public when comparing to the skills required and the world at large? There or thereabouts. Again, you seem reluctant to answer the question. How much do you think you should be paid? -
DaisyD 11,816 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 16 years agoI actually have no problem with my pay. I do have issue with an under inflation increase and the home secretary not honouring an arbitration court. Pay rises should be equal to inflation or to the private sector. The police index is worked on te private sector, based on the average of 200 companies pay rises to their staff. This is the first time in over 30 years it's not been based on that.
I also have a huge problem with nurses pay. It's lower than mine and unfairly so imo.
RSI or desk boredem leading to madness is hardly comparable to what happens to a fair percentage of the public sector. My mate was trapped and dragged along the ground by a car 3 - 4 years ago. He will never be able to go back to normal work again and has permenant serious back injures. Another friend of mine had her back fractured when pushed over by some she was arresting. Injuries are most often caused by drunken private sector workers off their face on drink or drugs or both. -
bainbrge 1,687 posts
Seen 5 months ago
Registered 19 years agoDaisyD wrote:
I actually have no problem with my pay. I do have issue with an under inflation increase and the home secretary not honouring an arbitration court. Pay rises should be equal to inflation or to the private sector. The police index is worked on te private sector, based on the average of 200 companies pay rises to their staff. This is the first time in over 30 years it's not been based on that.
I also have a huge problem with nurses pay. It's lower than mine and unfairly so imo.
RSI or desk boredem leading to madness is hardly comparable to what happens to a fair percentage of the public sector. My mate was trapped and dragged along the ground by a car 3 - 4 years ago. He will never be able to go back to normal work again and has permenant serious back injures. Another friend of mine had her back fractured when pushed over by some she was arresting. Injuries are most often caused by drunken private sector workers off their face on drink or drugs or both.
what a martyr! If its so shit, get a private sector job and feel welcomed into the world of short term temporary contracts, no representation at work, and most importantly no generous final salary pension (or even better, early retirement due to stress and/or injury).
The public sector gets paid the lowest the government can get away with - this is entirely right and proper as they act on behalf of the tax payer. As long as its not low enough to affect the quality of service given to the tax payer, its good enough. -
mwtb 2,381 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 17 years agoOf course they aren't comparable in a direct sense, but they are comparable as unpleasant aspect of a career choice. You aren't actually paid to be assaulted any more than a brickie is paid to be brained by falling scaffolding.
FWIW, I agree that pegging public sector wage deals below inflation seems harsh, but pegging public sector wages to potentially inflationary private sector wage inflation also has its problems. There's a larger problem that the inflation measures themselves are generally idiotic. CPI (Gordo's target for you lot) is at just over 2%, RPI (commonly used in private sector wage calcs) at just over 4%, yet energy and food inflation is roaring away in double percentage figures and housing inflation has only just come down from those levels.
Unfortunately, wages drive spending drive inflation, reducing the value of the increase you got... fun, eh? -
DaisyD 11,816 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 16 years agobainbrge wrote:
You better be prepared for your services to be severally affected this year.
As long as its not low enough to affect the quality of service given to the tax payer, its good enough. -
MetalDog 24,076 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agoThe 'public sector are underpaid heroes and private sector are overpaid assholes' thing is really killing your argument, Daisy. It really isn't as simple as that. Plenty of people in the private sector have to put up with abuse every day, many have no job security, many are paid worse than you are - it isn't an 'us vs them' situation. -
DaisyD 11,816 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 16 years agomwtb wrote:
Except reducing public sector pay will do nothing whilst private sector pay continues at that rate, but that won't change.
Unfortunately, wages drive spending drive inflation, reducing the value of the increase you got... fun, eh? -
Stickman 29,986 posts
Seen 5 months ago
Registered 17 years agoAs long as I get an increase in line with inflation I'll be happy. -
DaisyD 11,816 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 16 years agoMetalDog wrote:
That's not what I've been trying to say. I'm glad private sector get what they get because El_MUERkO's just had a good pay rise and that will help us very nicely with our mortgage aplications.
The 'public sector are underpaid heroes and private sector are overpaid assholes' thing is really killing your argument,
My has been and remains to be that cutting public sector pay will not change a thing whilst private sector remains at a higher level and, even more importantly, whilst coporate bastards decide they need more profit from everyone by uping the prices of fuel and food. -
mwtb 2,381 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 17 years agoDaisyD wrote:
mwtb wrote:
Except reducing public sector pay will do nothing whilst private sector pay continues at that rate, but that won't change.
Unfortunately, wages drive spending drive inflation, reducing the value of the increase you got... fun, eh?
Actually, no. The private sector is controlled by the market. Economic downturns cost us our jobs in a far greater proportion than the public sector. There's no geometric wage progression miracle happening, it's just wages responding to market demand. Demand dies and the wages will deflate.
You should realise that part of the reason for the private sector wage demands is the housing boom. Something worth considering when you dream of ever increasing house prices. -
MetalDog 24,076 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agoThe majority of people are getting screwed by the minority of people, that much is true. Bit of a thousand year+ trend, though, I can't see it changing any time soon. -
DaisyD 11,816 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 16 years agomwtb wrote:
I'd need to be able to afford a house first!
DaisyD wrote:
mwtb wrote:
Except reducing public sector pay will do nothing whilst private sector pay continues at that rate, but that won't change.
Unfortunately, wages drive spending drive inflation, reducing the value of the increase you got... fun, eh?
Actually, no. The private sector is controlled by the market. Economic downturns cost us our jobs in a far greater proportion than the public sector. There's no geometric wage progression miracle happening, it's just wages responding to market demand. Demand dies and the wages will deflate.
You should realise that part of the reason for the private sector wage demands is the housing boom. Something worth considering when you dream of ever increasing house prices. -
mwtb 2,381 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 17 years agoDaisyD wrote:
I'd need to be able to afford a house first!
I would worry more about being able to afford the value dropping. Which does lead on to an interesting point. What happens if we see deflation? Would you be okay with a below deflation pay decrease? : ) -
chopsen 21,958 posts
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Registered 16 years agomwtb wrote:
Would you be okay with a below deflation pay decrease? : )
/brain explodes -
DaisyD 11,816 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 16 years agoChopsen wrote:
mwtb wrote:
Would you be okay with a below deflation pay decrease? : )
/brain explodes
/brian implodes! -
ScoutTech 2,428 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 17 years agomwtb wrote:
Actually, no. The private sector is controlled by the market. Economic downturns cost us our jobs in a far greater proportion than the public sector. There's no geometric wage progression miracle happening, it's just wages responding to market demand. Demand dies and the wages will deflate.
You should realise that part of the reason for the private sector wage demands is the housing boom. Something worth considering when you dream of ever increasing house prices.
But how would the public sector follow that system? If a school is doing well wages don't go up, there aren't bonuses and you probably won't get promotion as it is entirely a progression thing (in that you wait for someone to leave or move elsewhere). In fact there is almost a discentive to doing well in that schools seem to get less money the better they do. I would love it to work that way, as we are consistently being praised for our network, we bring projects in on time & generally under or on budget. It may be wishful thinking but from some places I've seen that would be worth a raise, christmas bonus and a team outing at least!
But I do understand the high and lows point. In recession there probably won't be cut backs so it is a bit more stable. Flipping again though if the school does do badly then staff are often cut.
But why isn't you're final point about wage demands for housing valid for public sector? Housing prices shoot up and we don't get a raise so are shafted for housing just as much as anyone. Think I may be missing something on that point as I am rubbish with all that stuff.gif)
But on the other hand I have to say if the job really was all that rubbish I would have left. It is a good job, I enjoy it and it is rewarding. I get to a wider range of work then I would in the private sector so experience a whole lot more. Do get very rewarding moments with both the kids AND teachers. I hope Daisy would say the same about her job. But people like bainbrige who don't seem to grasp some things don't help. When people deride a 3% increase. 3% of not alot is still not alot. The recent pay increase that was the cause of much trouble and anger by the public equated to a matter of pounds and pence for a lot of the people I work with.
It's swings and roundabouts I guess & everyone would like to paid a fair wage. -
DaisyD 11,816 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 16 years agoAbsolutely agree. I love helping people, particularly the young offenders I work with. The moment hen it all clicks into place and they realise crime is never going to benefit and will, infact, hinder any career they may want is great! -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 20 years agoDaisyD wrote:
...whilst coporate bastards decide they need more profit from everyone by uping the prices of fuel and food.
While I agree with many of your sentiments the high nature of the cost of fuel is mostly governed by the, er, government. And all that extra revenue is used to, er, pay public sector workers, among other things.
The price of fuel could be dropped dramatically tomorrow but you'd defo be looking at a pay cut then
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mwtb 2,381 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 17 years agoScoutTech wrote:
But how would the public sector follow that system?
I'm not suggesting that it can. I'm saying, as you mentioned, that it is buffered from the market forces that more directly drive wages in the private sector. This means the public sector doesn't generally see pay bonanzas as has occurred in some private sectors, but they're also more protected from the downturns that normally follow such bonanzas. Over time, though, the two spheres do follow a shared path, sometimes close, sometimes further apart.
ScoutTech wrote:
But why isn't you're final point about wage demands for housing valid for public sector? Housing prices shoot up and we don't get a raise so are shafted for housing just as much as anyone.
Yes, of course! I'm trying to point out that we are all in the same world and things are related, not that house prices are uniquely a private sector problem. Inflation bad, wage increase good, house prices up good, low mortgage rates good does not compute for any of us.
The issue here is that the government is pitching this as an inflation controlling move, and there's some truth in that, but it's never going to seem fair when the market is pushing private sector rates up over that government target. What are the choices though? The government takes the hands off the reins of the public purse and inflation control? Or they use the levers they have to try and pull it back so that we all don't crash and burn together?
As I said, I'm not a big advocate of the tactic, but over the long run all a government can do is try to smooth out the market cycles, they can't permanently depress public sector wages in any real sense. If inflation keeps going, they'll have to renegotiate and that's why the public sector is so heavily unionised compared to the private sector, I guess. -
ScoutTech 2,428 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 17 years agomwtb wrote:
ScoutTech wrote:
But how would the public sector follow that system?
I'm not suggesting that it can. I'm saying, as you mentioned, that it is buffered from the market forces that more directly drive wages in the private sector. This means the public sector doesn't generally see pay bonanzas as has occurred in some private sectors, but they're also more protected from the downturns that normally follow such bonanzas. Over time, though, the two spheres do follow a shared path, sometimes close, sometimes further apart.
ScoutTech wrote:
But why isn't you're final point about wage demands for housing valid for public sector? Housing prices shoot up and we don't get a raise so are shafted for housing just as much as anyone.
Yes, of course! I'm trying to point out that we are all in the same world and things are related, not that house prices are uniquely a private sector problem. Inflation bad, wage increase good, house prices up good, low mortgage rates good does not compute for any of us.
The issue here is that the government is pitching this as an inflation controlling move, and there's some truth in that, but it's never going to seem fair when the market is pushing private sector rates up over that government target. What are the choices though? The government takes the hands off the reins of the public purse and inflation control? Or they use the levers they have to try and pull it back so that we all don't crash and burn together?
As I said, I'm not a big advocate of the tactic, but over the long run all a government can do is try to smooth out the market cycles, they can't permanently depress public sector wages in any real sense. If inflation keeps going, they'll have to renegotiate and that's why the public sector is so heavily unionised compared to the private sector, I guess.
Cheers for clarifying. That is the other thing you get when you join the public sector. A tendancy for being defensive. I think it is as someone said earlier, when you mention public sector people have a bad view because of the wide range it covers including the ones we all hate. Sometimes even worse if you mention you work in a school as people have the learnt dislike from childhood and the thoughts of you having the those 6 weeks in summer. Well just so you fab people know, not everyone does. Some of us support staff are all year round, including most the summer.
Does just seem silly that those that are pretty bad off get the reins pulled on while others are in the throws of excess (ok exageration but it can seem like that). As I said, economics are not my strong point but there must be bank controls or ways that everyone, private sector too can curb inflation if it is that bad. In my mind it seems that we just seem to stagger from boom economy that leads to raising inflation that the government and banks do some jiggery pokery to make it all crash to start again. -
I think part of the problem is that perception is rather skewed by reports of big city bonuses and upper management pay scales. Private sector wage inflation has actually been very low for years:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/students/graduation/story/0,,1819632,00.html
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