Following Question Time Page 34

  • DaM 10 Jun 2016 08:42:14 17,207 posts
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    The UK has many defining values, but I don't think immigration is "diluting" these. we have a history of absorbing immigrants, language, culture etc.
  • Armoured_Bear 10 Jun 2016 08:47:49 25,102 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    DaM wrote:
    FartPipe wrote:
    I'm glad most of you here are stayers, I just don't get the leave idiots, yeah mass immigration is shit, but I welcome it just needs toning right down, I know it would be difficult to control, just let all the hot 20 something women in.
    But why? They are working, our economy is growing so it needs more workers than we can produce. They pay in more than they take out. Has your life been affected by this mass immigration?
    It may be a threat to uk culture like curry and lager?
    So you don't feel there are any behaviours, shared attitudes or culture? That the UK is completely devoid of an identity?

    I makes no difference to me I'm a New Zealander, but you seem determined to push the argument that the UK is essentially devoid of any defining values.
    I was pointing out that two of the things that people seem to love most about British came from Johnny Foreigner.

    I'd love to hear what British values are hugely different to mainland Europeans though.
  • Load_2.0 10 Jun 2016 08:50:49 28,400 posts
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    I think that saying curry and lager are the two most loved things in England is pretty lazy thinking.

    It is on a par with saying if you come from the Jamaica you love weed and chicken.
  • Jeepers 10 Jun 2016 08:52:04 16,576 posts
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    Or incest and shotguns if you're from Norfolk.
  • Load_2.0 10 Jun 2016 08:52:50 28,400 posts
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    Also why are you defining your argument as mainland Europeans?
  • Armoured_Bear 10 Jun 2016 08:54:16 25,102 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I think that saying curry and lager are the two most loved things in England is pretty lazy thinking.

    It is on a par with saying if you come from the Jamaica you love weed and chicken.
    "two of the", not "the two".

    Please supply me with a definition of English culture and values.
  • Armoured_Bear 10 Jun 2016 08:54:43 25,102 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Also why are you defining your argument as mainland Europeans?
    Because that's who Brexiters claim are the devil.
  • PazJohnMitch 10 Jun 2016 08:55:39 14,055 posts
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    The reason the government cannot control immigration from outside the EU is because those immigrants are either:

    A: Highly skilled and therefore have their own work visa.

    B: Wives / Husbands or children of people who either have visa A or wives / husbands / children of British citizens.

    The government have made both categories harder to obtain visas in. However the simple truth is we need those in category A and it would be unfair to deny access to people in category B.

    My wife is Chinese and believe me the Tories have made getting her a visa very difficult. If they crack down any further I will probably have to emigrate to China so we can remain together.
  • Jeepers 10 Jun 2016 08:57:23 16,576 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I think that saying curry and lager are the two most loved things in England is pretty lazy thinking.

    It is on a par with saying if you come from the Jamaica you love weed and chicken.
    "two of the", not "the two".

    Please supply me with a definition of English culture and values.
    Which? The ones we believe to be true (stoicism, fair play, fight for the underdog) or the ones that are probably true (indolence, class bias, petty xenophobia)?
  • Load_2.0 10 Jun 2016 08:58:01 28,400 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I think that saying curry and lager are the two most loved things in England is pretty lazy thinking.

    It is on a par with saying if you come from the Jamaica you love weed and chicken.
    "two of the", not "the two".

    Please supply me with a definition of English culture and values.
    This has been your defence everytime. How would you like me to present what is an incredibly complex issue into a concise post?

    A definition would require comparisons, without it is redundant.

    Would comparisons suit?
  • X201 10 Jun 2016 08:58:18 18,783 posts
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    DaM wrote:
    The UK has many defining values, but I don't think immigration is "diluting" these. we have a history of absorbing immigrants, language, culture etc.
    Agree,

    Isombard Kingdom Brunel, a truly great Briton, but in the eyes of Leavers the son of scrounging immigrants
  • Armoured_Bear 10 Jun 2016 08:59:34 25,102 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I think that saying curry and lager are the two most loved things in England is pretty lazy thinking.

    It is on a par with saying if you come from the Jamaica you love weed and chicken.
    "two of the", not "the two".

    Please supply me with a definition of English culture and values.
    This has been your defence everytime. How would you like me to present what is an incredibly complex issue into a concise post?

    A definition would require comparisons, without it is redundant.

    Would comparisons suit?
    Knock me out with your comparisons.
  • Jeepers 10 Jun 2016 09:14:27 16,576 posts
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    Or a brick.
  • brokenkey 10 Jun 2016 09:18:20 10,058 posts
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    Farage, MEP for Wales, said at one point last night "...Wales, and the rest of England." This was during the discussion about acting like Little Englanders. I laughed.
  • Load_2.0 10 Jun 2016 09:35:14 28,400 posts
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    I will try my best. If you are willing to accept that how we treat/respect a population is a value we can start there.

    If we look at Men and Women and the gender gap.

    http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2015/rankings/

    The UK is the second largest supplier of foreign aid to overseas countries. You can google that it's fairly well established.

    The UK is one of only 15 countries to support same-sex marriages.

    Welfare spending in Britain has increased faster than almost any other country in Europe since 2000.


    If we compare the above to India and Poland, which I think are still the biggest numbers immigration wise.


    India/Poland - Same-sex marriage? No.
    India/Poland - gender equality 50th and 108th on that chart above
    Overseas Aid - UK 18.7 Billion, Poland 0.44 billion, Couldn't find it for India and I have to go to a meeting.
    Welfare (As a percentage of GDP) England and Poland are fairly close, India ranks very low.


    Obviously there are a vast number of options for defining "values" those four are fairly relevant and support the idea that the UK is a leader (along with a number of other countries) in valuing the needs of people over political/religous/historical doctrine.
  • FartPipe 10 Jun 2016 09:35:56 5,307 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    DaM wrote:
    FartPipe wrote:
    I'm glad most of you here are stayers, I just don't get the leave idiots, yeah mass immigration is shit, but I welcome it just needs toning right down, I know it would be difficult to control, just let all the hot 20 something women in.
    But why? They are working, our economy is growing so it needs more workers than we can produce. They pay in more than they take out. Has your life been affected by this mass immigration?
    It may be a threat to uk culture like curry and lager?
    So you don't feel there are any behaviours, shared attitudes or culture? That the UK is completely devoid of an identity?

    I makes no difference to me I'm a New Zealander, but you seem determined to push the argument that the UK is essentially devoid of any defining values.
    I was pointing out that two of the things that people seem to love most about British came from Johnny Foreigner.

    I'd love to hear what British values are hugely different to mainland Europeans though.
    Carrying this on, most of the worlds lands are mongrels anyway, we've seeked new lands to settle on for centuries, it's just now it's so easy, we don't have to sail on a sail boat now for weeks with a high chance of death.

    This is my land fuckers, piss off back, are dumb as shit, I love to diversity I wish we'd just integrate more, we will hopefully over the years, either that or it'll be civil war.

    A lot of people don't like change and get scared and defensive.

    Anyway we need the alliance with the EU IMO, we're united and much safer as a collective and it has been safer and as peaceful as this since the unification, forget about the cowardly terrorists.

    We had a recession and it happens, you can't keep growing and growing it just doesn't work like that, but that's another thing the leavers bang on about, we will recover, just punish the corrupt ones with sanctions for fucking up the system.

    Leave lol, they're fucking empty heads.
  • Load_2.0 10 Jun 2016 09:48:11 28,400 posts
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    My main issue is with your insistence that their is no definable culture in the UK.

    A definition for clarity: "The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society."

    Are you saying that the UK has no customs? No definable social behaviour?

    Does any country have a culture? If so what is it about them that seperates them from the UK?
  • Armoured_Bear 10 Jun 2016 10:05:21 25,102 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    My main issue is with your insistence that their is no definable culture in the UK.

    A definition for clarity: "The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society."

    Are you saying that the UK has no customs? No definable social behaviour?

    Does any country have a culture? If so what is it about them that seperates them from the UK?

    My insistence is that despite hearing so often about the dangers of foreigners “diluting our culture/values/way of life”, I’ve no idea what these dangerous perceived cultural differences are.

    Is it too many Italians wanting gelaterias and ruining everything with their passagiatas?
    Will too many Germans cause too much good beer?
  • Load_2.0 10 Jun 2016 10:15:15 28,400 posts
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    Germany, Italy and the UK are fairly progressive countries. Who share many values.

    That isn't always the case. Gender equality, the rights of the LGBT community, racial equality varies from country to country.
  • FartPipe 10 Jun 2016 10:17:39 5,307 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    My main issue is with your insistence that their is no definable culture in the UK.

    A definition for clarity: "The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society."

    Are you saying that the UK has no customs? No definable social behaviour?

    Does any country have a culture? If so what is it about them that seperates them from the UK?
    I've just not answered the question sorry, of course we've got an identity, we have fun rivalries between cities and towns, we have many local words and nick names, Everyone knows London is a congested shit hole, we're defiant, we unify in tragedies, and many thousands more, we also have fun digs at Scotland and Wales but we love them really, well I do anyway, and France is a rivalry but in fun ways nowadays.

    We're not a zombie nation sorry for not clarifying, we're united we and stand together.

    The Scots hate us as well if not even more :D
  • Load_2.0 10 Jun 2016 10:19:19 28,400 posts
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    Anyway this is probably better suited to the EU Poll thread. So I will take it over there.
  • CosmicFuzz 10 Jun 2016 10:19:38 32,531 posts
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    Listened to it on the drive into work. Fucking hell, I agree with Izzard but he didn't half annoy me there. Didn't come across well I didn't think.

    Although neither did many of them (or the audience). Hilary Benn was pretty much the only guy I thought gave good clear answers (that I agreed with tbf).
  • PazJohnMitch 10 Jun 2016 11:20:41 14,055 posts
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    @CosmicFuzz

    With you there. I also fundamentally agree with Eddie but by the end just wanted him to leave Nigel alone.

    The woman was just speaking nonsense as far as I was concerned.

    As for the other 3 I think all raised interesting points at various points of the discussion. Hilary was the most consistent and did not say anything I actively disagreed with. However I would have liked a civil conversation about financial matters between those 3.

    The Tory guy said something about our trade with the Commonwealth I would have liked this discussed further. He implied we did not have free trade with our Commonwealth partners and it was due to our ties to the EU but Nigel did not confirm this and Hilary did not rebuke him.

    Is it that the EU prevent us from having tariff free trade outside the EU or is it that we have simply not negotiated it before? Would we be able to have free Commonwealth trade if we left but cannot do so currently? And how big is commonwealth trade compared to EU trade?
  • Armoured_Bear 10 Jun 2016 11:21:10 25,102 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Germany, Italy and the UK are fairly progressive countries. Who share many values.

    That isn't always the case. Gender equality, the rights of the LGBT community, racial equality varies from country to country.
    Haha, you think the people that want "our culture" to not be diluted by foreigners are concerned with the LGBT community?
  • Load_2.0 10 Jun 2016 11:34:29 28,400 posts
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    I am suggesting that if you introduce a new population into any community in a large volume that it alters the status quo. Whether that be the UK or Spain or Germany or South Africa or Antartica.

    However your counter is that the UK is populated in the majority by curry eating, lager swilling, xenophobic and homophobic citizens devoid of identity or cultural values.
  • Armoured_Bear 10 Jun 2016 11:39:08 25,102 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I am suggesting that if you introduce a new population into any community in a large volume that it alters the status quo. Whether that be the UK or Spain or Germany or South Africa or Antartica.

    However your counter is that the UK is populated in the majority by curry eating, lager swilling, xenophobic and homophobic citizens devoid of identity or cultural values.
    Yes, that's exactly what I posted.
  • Deleted user 10 June 2016 12:35:04
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I think that saying curry and lager are the two most loved things in England is pretty lazy thinking.

    It is on a par with saying if you come from the Jamaica you love weed and chicken.
    "two of the", not "the two".

    Please supply me with a definition of English culture and values.
    That peasant should defer to their social betters and that it's not theft or exploitation if you speak English.
  • breakablepants 10 Jun 2016 13:11:40 942 posts
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    @Armoured_Bear

    Just wanted to come back to an earlier comment, as I'm not sure using India and Poland as a comparison works - or in fact whether if there is a comparison to be drawn it should be with the values of the individual, rather than the nation they come from.

    For example - Poland currently has one of the most right-wing governments in Europe. If you compare UK values with Poland in terms of policies or laws, that infers that Polish people automatically share all those values. But surely one of the reasons behind Polish migration to more liberal and prosperous EU countries is precisely because those individuals (who tend to be young and well educated) share the values of their adopted nation rather than their place of birth?

    The immigration argument is also massively skewed because of our legacy of empire, and membership of the commonwealth. Indians are the single largest group of immigrants to the UK; Brexit will have no effect on Indian immigration as it is a result of the commonwealth and not EU policy.

    Poland is a unique case due to the fact that Britain went to war to defend it, and there has always been a close relationship and strong Polish community in the UK. My grandfather escaped from the Russians and came to England in WW2, and there has always been a huge Polish and Russian community in West London. This is as much a draw than the economic immigration argument.

    Even if we were to agree that too many Poles were allowed into the UK under the botched Labour policies of the past, the current Polish population of the UK is about 1% of the total, or about 15% of the 12% of the UK population who are classed as immigrants. (BTW- all stats from Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom#Countries_of_origin)

    I guess my point is that we already attract people from all over the world that do share "British values" - when their home governments may not. It's part of the attraction of the UK, and why we are pretty multicultural. We already impose immigration limits on non-EU migration, and that remains as high as EU migration. Filtering on the basis of 'values' doesn't work, as values are personal and can't be defined.
  • twelveways 10 Jun 2016 13:18:34 7,131 posts
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    Morris dancing can fuck off
  • Psychotext 10 Jun 2016 13:26:22 64,298 posts
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    I don't it's a strange thing to say (and probably off topic), but I'm yet to meet a Polish person I didn't like. I'm sure there must be some, but on the whole I'd gladly welcome more of them over here. :)
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