Boxing Page 193

  • SolidSCB 17 Jun 2019 17:45:29 11,411 posts
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    I just think the guy is a bit of a bellend to be honest. He's not really a villain, I don't have any burning hatred towards the guy or where he comes from. I just dislike his rotten attitude and the idea that just because he doesn't have any sort of internal filter on the things he says out loud it somehow makes him 'charismatic'.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 17 Jun 2019 17:47:47 16,702 posts
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    Decks wrote:
    What villains do you mean though? I'm genuinely interested as I can't really think of any.
    Well, the op was about Tyson Fury. If you literally canít think of any at all in all of the media portrayal of boxing then Iím not really sure what to say.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 17 Jun 2019 17:54:57 20,662 posts
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    I'm not trying to be a dick, but no I can't really think of any "boxing villains" now. That's why I'm asking.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 17 Jun 2019 18:03:14 16,702 posts
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    Tyson Fury was one. Now he isnít.

    Chisora and Haye were both kinda villainy, Tyson and Alli as mentioned. And I disagree about Eubank and Nas as well, both very much had the treatment at point.

    It ranges from pantomime to more extreme, but the hero/villain narrative is incredibly common in boxing and always has been. Itís literally the plot of all 8 Rocky films because itís so fundamental to the portrayal of the sport.
  • sport 17 Jun 2019 18:06:55 15,171 posts
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    Please leave my man Chisora out of this, "the only black man in Hampstead Garden Suburb".
  • nickthegun 17 Jun 2019 18:08:57 78,493 posts
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    Nas definitely was. He was well liked as a boxer and disliked as a twat.
  • Lukus 17 Jun 2019 18:18:55 22,017 posts
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    Mayweather Jr was/is a villain I guess, in that people used to pay the PPV hoping to see him get battered. I've never really looked at boxing in those terms though. Seems more of a WWE kind of thing.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 17 Jun 2019 18:25:29 16,702 posts
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    I suspect the pantomime nature of wrestling was inspired by, and is a more extreme version of what Iím talking about in boxing. But Iím not sure, perhaps it was the other way round. They do seem to draw influence from each other though.

    Good example would be the trash talking and actual supposed fisticuffs you get at the press conferences. Iím fairly certain itís largely if not entirely put on.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 17 Jun 2019 18:26:23 20,662 posts
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    Would disagree that Haye was ever portrayed as a villain. Tyson was a huge hero before the rapin' and the bitin'. And Eubank and Nas completely played up to the villain role (and were still pretty much worshipped).

    The only one I would agree has been linked to race is Ali, but that was a pretty extreme situation obviously.

    For me boxing has done a lot to help with race relations over the years so I honestly don't see race coming into the whole villain thing. (Calzaghe got a pretty hard time by the press incidentally)

    Edited by Decks at 18:43:37 17-06-2019
  • Lukus 17 Jun 2019 18:57:36 22,017 posts
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    https://youtu.be/cEjo0ajod1M?t=28



    Edited by Lukus at 18:58:26 17-06-2019
  • The-Bodybuilder 17 Jun 2019 20:13:18 17,828 posts
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    Decks wrote:
    Nigel Benn
    Bruno
    Even Nas was before he started knocking people over.

    And Lewis was seen as not a true brit because he was Canadian, he was definitely seen as a hero though.

    I just don't see it myself, the villain/hero narratives that go on in boxing are very much down to personalities imo, ethnicity never seems to come into it from what I can see.

    Also there's not many boxers I can think of that play the "villain" role anyways, certainly not in British boxing. Eubank? Cant really think of many more.
    Deffo disagree with the Lewis thing. He was always treated as a bit of a Tim Henman from the get go. Only jumped on his coattails when it became clear of his talent, but before that, not really a hero. He was also labelled a party boy and someone who didn't like the UK, that's not exactly hero talk.

    Benn is closest, but less so hero and more force of nature type.

    I also think it's utterly naÔve to claim to not see racial bias in the media. It's bad enough to claim it now (even though we've seen evidence of it with black football players like Sterling), but to claim it back then is even worse. There is a reason why the term "Great White Hope" existed and was born in boxing for a reason.

    I know the whole "I don't see colour" thing is done to make it seem like one doesn't see or isn't racist, but that type of thinking actually causes more issues than one thinks, because to now "see racism" is to not see clear disparities an institutional racism that exist in Western society.

    I have noticed this recent trend/backlash whereby too many get defensive at the topic of race, and to quickly bury it away with "I don't see racism these days", and now the topic almost can't be spoken off objectively; because one side is full of anger about it, and another side becomes defensive about feeling called out as being racist when they aren't.

    It's like for the past few years how many in FIFA, the FA and even some English media genuinely thought racism from football had gone, because "they didn't see it", but recent evidence shows its been there bubbling away.

    Anyways, back to boxing.
  • The-Bodybuilder 17 Jun 2019 20:15:05 17,828 posts
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    craigy wrote:
    Came to post that exact same list. Everyone was absolutely mad about Bruno and Prince Naseem. Even Eubank(s) had an oddball personality but generally people rooted for him.
    LOL no way.
    There's some revisionism going on here. Naseem was popular but was very divisive because of his outgoing character.
    And Eubanks Snr was definitely someone that people generally rooted for. In fact one could argue Benn's popularity is linked to Eubanks own unpopularity, as for a while it was a choice between the two.
  • The-Bodybuilder 17 Jun 2019 20:21:07 17,828 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I dont think there are villains or heroes in boxing.

    The percentage who run into trouble with the law is incredibly disproportionate in comparison to other sports.

    Tyson, Mayweather, Valero, Corrales, Liston, Monzoon, Bowe, Butler, Monsoon.

    All huge names in boxing and all convicted of a variety of serious crimes but still considered heroes and legends to the majority of people with an interest in boxing.

    I think when you look at the disadvantaged and difficult backgrounds a lot of these guys come from you could say that is a factor in them ending up in trouble. Especially if you factor in the history instant wealth, poor management and resulting bankruptcies.
    I think people need to acknowledge the difference between "Hero" and "Freak Show".
    "Hero", is...I would say, the way AJ is treated.
    "Freak Show" are those who were loved for the sheer entertainment of boxing. Tyson was never ever a hero. He was popular, but that never made him a hero. He was more of a "freak show"; this quiet spoken kid taken in by Cuz and turned into a vicious KO artist, and people were intrigued by that.
    But that is a far cry from the hero worship that AJ and Fury is getting right now.

    Mayweather? LOL, even before his problems with the law, he was already hated. He said it himself, he created the Money persona because the pretty boy nice kid persona wasn't making him the top dollars.

    I wouldn't put Bowe there either, and certainly not Liston. Once again, I think people are mistaking popularity for hero. Fury and at best AJ, are getting that hero status.
  • The-Bodybuilder 17 Jun 2019 20:31:20 17,828 posts
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    Like I said, in boxing there is a difference between hero and freakshow.
    Tyson was never billed as a hero, just a freak of nature man-child who people paid to see KO people. That's entertainment, that's not hero-status.

    Seems a lot of people are mistaking the two as the same thing when they're not. I think the boxing purist just want to say "I see boxing for what it is, just boxing", which I totally agree with, I'll like a fighter based on their style, that's it. But just because one sees the world like this, doesn't mean the rest of the world, particularly the mainstream world, views it as such.

    Like I said, the term "Great White Hope" didn't just come to being in a vacuum; it came directly from boxing, and the history that comes with it. It may not be as prevalent as before, but overall throughout history, it's been there. It plays it's part.

    Heck you can even see it in MMA. McGregor is pretty much attitude-wise the same as Mayweather (with similar issues with the law to boot), and though both became incredibly popular, one was oddly loved as a hero whilst the other is a well established villain, yet they acted exactly the same.
  • Lukus 17 Jun 2019 20:39:46 22,017 posts
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    I'm not sure the Mcgregor Mayweather comparison works. When Mcgregor burst into the UFC he was genuinely funny with good comedy timing and self awareness. I'm not sure that could ever be said about Mayweather. Plus now Mcgregor is losing loads of fans precisely because he's taken the arrogance too far and lost sight of the tongue in cheek element and knowing-ness. That and he's an unbearable wanker these days.
  • waggy79 17 Jun 2019 20:43:02 2,002 posts
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    Quite alot of difference between the two really. They may both be seen as arrogant, but McGregor was gold on the mic and entertaining in the ring, whereas to the masses (and myself), Mayweather wasnt.
  • Youthist 17 Jun 2019 20:46:01 13,856 posts
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    If my memory serves me as I grew up Bruno, Nigel Benn, Watson, Naseem and the ilk were hugely celebrated and cheered as hugely successful and popular boxing figures in the UK - at least if not more so than say Hatton and the welsh fella that never lost a fight. Eubanks was definitely boo hiss territory because he was just too good at defense and winning
    ugly.

    And Tyson in his pomp was over here (rightly) positioned as an unmissable sporting event of someone extraordinary at the height of their powers (similar to Woods when he was also unbeatable).
  • Load_2.0 17 Jun 2019 20:47:49 29,744 posts
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    Fury or AJ are nowhere near the heights of Liston or Bowe. They are virtually unknown outside the UK.

    I don't think Fury is considered a hero by anyone. He's an idiot.

    AJ has been a lucrative marketing product. He sells PPV's headphones and protein shakes but he's not even a contender for top ten UK heavyweight.

    Liston on the other hand is rated as the 7th greatest heavyweight of all time. He was absolutely a hero to people and fans.

    To dismiss Tyson as a freakshow is ridiculous. He was a phenomenal boxer and probably the most famous after Ali. His coordination, handspeed and aggression were awesome.

    If punching people hard was all that is required Butterbean would be the greatest ever.
  • JYM60 17 Jun 2019 20:50:42 17,805 posts
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    waggy79 wrote:
    Quite alot of difference between the two really. They may both be seen as arrogant, but McGregor was gold on the mic and entertaining in the ring, whereas to the masses (and myself), Mayweather wasnt.

    Plus the fact McGregor fights were actually exciting. Mayweather so boring. I used to stay up to watch Mayweather with my housemate. Fell asleep during every single fight. Apparently you're not a real boxing fan if you don't enjoy runaway boxing though...

    Both total knobs though.

    Fury and AJ are unknown outside of the UK because there aren't really any good heavyweights, in America, or otherwise. And the top fighters have seemed reluctant to fight each other for years.

    It's actually impressive how AJ, Fury and Wilder have basically gotten huge contracts and payouts from having careers of fighting bums.

    Edited by JYM60 at 21:12:47 17-06-2019
  • The-Bodybuilder 17 Jun 2019 22:40:31 17,828 posts
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    Lukus wrote:
    I'm not sure the Mcgregor Mayweather comparison works. When Mcgregor burst into the UFC he was genuinely funny with good comedy timing and self awareness. I'm not sure that could ever be said about Mayweather. Plus now Mcgregor is losing loads of fans precisely because he's taken the arrogance too far and lost sight of the tongue in cheek element and knowing-ness. That and he's an unbearable wanker these days.
    Oh I dunno, it's down to perception. Loads of people found the "Money" persona funny in a comical villany sort of way. Like I said, it's all well and good everyone looking at Ali now with rose-tinted specs, but he was absolutely hated at the time for all his bravado.

    The irony ofcourse is Ali himself said he got that persona from wrestler Gorgeous George at the time, who was well loved as a wrestler for the exact same thing Ali did, yet Ali was hated.

    It's why I say Liston and Frazier were never loved. They were liked and supported, particularly against Ali at the time, because they were somewhat quiet and meek, and it was felt that's how fighters and even wrestlers should behave, yet no one had an issue with Gorgeous George.
  • The-Bodybuilder 17 Jun 2019 22:48:47 17,828 posts
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    Youthist wrote:
    If my memory serves me as I grew up Bruno, Nigel Benn, Watson, Naseem and the ilk were hugely celebrated and cheered as hugely successful and popular boxing figures in the UK - at least if not more so than say Hatton and the welsh fella that never lost a fight. Eubanks was definitely boo hiss territory because he was just too good at defense and winning
    ugly.

    And Tyson in his pomp was over here (rightly) positioned as an unmissable sporting event of someone extraordinary at the height of their powers (similar to Woods when he was also unbeatable).
    Like I said, there's a difference between backing a force of nature, and making one a hero.

    We all know there's deep-rooted racism in the many southern states of America, yet that doesn't stop them rooting for black players on their team. Not the same as making them a hero.

    Once again, using sporting terminologies, in the US an "All American Hero" in sports usually describes a certain type of athlete; stoic, very square and chiselled jaw, jarhead type of figure, usually comes from a wholesome "All American" family who say their prayers and go to church, and also commonly white.

    It doesn't mean everyone is racist, but recently there's some hype in the US of some kid who's ran a sub-10 in athletics in the recent season. Fantastic numbers. I mean, the numbers have been done before at high school, but this kid is getting all manner of hype like no other HS athlete like before. The main difference? He's white and doing those numbers.

    There's that sense of, if he ever became the fastest man in the world, his popularity would far outstrip Bolt. I've seen the kid talk, decent kid, but you can tell he doesn't have the same charism as Usain, but there's no doubt if he ever became the fastest man in the world (even if not beating his record), he would without a doubt be the biggest name in athletics.
  • The-Bodybuilder 17 Jun 2019 22:53:40 17,828 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Fury or AJ are nowhere near the heights of Liston or Bowe. They are virtually unknown outside the UK.

    I don't think Fury is considered a hero by anyone. He's an idiot.

    AJ has been a lucrative marketing product. He sells PPV's headphones and protein shakes but he's not even a contender for top ten UK heavyweight.

    Liston on the other hand is rated as the 7th greatest heavyweight of all time. He was absolutely a hero to people and fans.

    To dismiss Tyson as a freakshow is ridiculous. He was a phenomenal boxer and probably the most famous after Ali. His coordination, handspeed and aggression were awesome.

    If punching people hard was all that is required Butterbean would be the greatest ever.
    Sorry Load, but I think you may not be seeing it from Kalel's perspective.
    I think you're maybe seeing it as a boxing purist, rather than the general casual, who's watch of boxing in the UK this year will probably only ever be an AJ fight.

    You may not think Fury is a hero, but he's definitely the media of boxing right now, as the bastion of mental health (and can't deny him that tbh).

    Once again, I ask you consider it from a mainstream perspective and when the media is involved. Liston, bless him, you go up to 100 people on the street and 90 of them won't know who he is.

    Your comment on Tyson makes me to believe you're kinda intentionally missing the point. I've never said anything about Tyson's talent. Do you think the general fan appreciates his Cus peek-a-boo style? His ability to fight in the pocket? Do you think they paid money to watch him cut angle and get into the pocket? No, they didn't. Edit: The casual paid money to with the ferocious man-child smash through bigger men with pure venom. But you think those casual parents would be happy if their children said "Mike Tyson is my idol"? They wouldn't. That's not hero status.

    Edited by The-Bodybuilder at 23:00:07 17-06-2019
  • The-Bodybuilder 17 Jun 2019 22:57:31 17,828 posts
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    @JYM60 I mean, Fury beat the man when he was the man, and AJ, overrated as he may be, didn't exactly beat "bums" in Klitchko (washed up may be), Parker, Povetkin, etc.

    As for Mayweather, it depends which version you know. Sounds like you know the "Money" version, which is fine as that's the well-known version who had gone up in weight and had hand issues so altered his style to be boring.

    But "PBF" version was anything but boring, fighting at his natural weight, using both hands more often and knocking out folks. But no one paid to see that version, and that's exactly why he created the Money character (if not, his true nature at least).
  • macmurphy 18 Jun 2019 09:55:25 3,929 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:

    Liston on the other hand is rated as the 7th greatest heavyweight of all time. He was absolutely a hero to people and fans.

    Sonny Liston? Wut?

    Universally hated even by black people. Criminal record, surly with the press, beat Patterson who was loved by white and black alike. Liston was a great boxer but he was far from a hero.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 18 Jun 2019 09:59:51 16,702 posts
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    Came 3rd in this article about boxingís greatest villains:

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1587770-ranking-the-10-greatest-villains-in-boxing-history#slide8

    And Tyson came second.
  • Load_2.0 18 Jun 2019 10:11:57 29,744 posts
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    Liston was a black man in America in the 1950s and 1960s. Being black was a crime.

    Everyone who reported and wrote about boxing at the time was white. They loved tearing him down.

    OK Hero isn't the right term but he is/was considered by many as one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

    On a side note there is a book by Paul Gallender which is a great read if you're a fan of boxing in that era.

    Edited by Load_2.0 at 10:12:56 18-06-2019
  • Load_2.0 18 Jun 2019 10:18:19 29,744 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Came 3rd in this article about boxingís greatest villains:

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1587770-ranking-the-10-greatest-villains-in-boxing-history#slide8

    And Tyson came second.
    That list seems to have a pretty diverse spread of ethnicities.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 18 Jun 2019 10:26:46 20,662 posts
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    I'd forgot about Golota. What a dick he was.

    Edited by Decks at 10:26:54 18-06-2019
  • Load_2.0 18 Jun 2019 10:27:31 29,744 posts
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    He loved a dick punch.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 18 Jun 2019 10:39:37 20,662 posts
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    Ha that was fucking great. He was winning the fight too but the urge to punch him in the dick was just too great.
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