Following Learning Japanese I think I'm learning Japanese I really think so Page 53

  • Mola_Ram 30 Sep 2019 11:24:00 23,529 posts
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    I always associate romaji with phrasebooks for tourists. If you're at all serious about learning the language, then you at least need the kanas.

    I still read a bit (mostly manga), but I've recently gotten the urge to go back and learn more kanji. That was my favourite part of the language by far.
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 30 Sep 2019 13:45:18 3,890 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    I always associate romaji with phrasebooks for tourists. If you're at all serious about learning the language, then you at least need the kanas.

    I still read a bit (mostly manga), but I've recently gotten the urge to go back and learn more kanji. That was my favourite part of the language by far.
    Exactly. The kanji was also one of my favourite bits, albeit the bit I have lost competency with the most. I am regoing over all my old stuff again to try and kick start the brain.
  • HarryPalmer 30 Sep 2019 14:04:30 6,096 posts
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    I start lessons tonight. Been doing Duolingo for a while but feels like learning by rote, probably because it is. Learnt a fair bit of vocab and kana though, just struggle to recall it outside of the app.
  • The_Goon 30 Sep 2019 16:56:02 1,451 posts
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    I really need to get back into this and make it a habit to study. I have MNN and various other textbooks/apps but just haven't put time in to learn in months. And then I have a buttload of Yotsubato and Doraemon manga (in Japanese) to read once I'm up to scratch! Never going to be able to read them at this point!
  • Armoured_Bear 30 Sep 2019 17:39:30 28,696 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    I always associate romaji with phrasebooks for tourists. If you're at all serious about learning the language, then you at least need the kanas.

    I still read a bit (mostly manga), but I've recently gotten the urge to go back and learn more kanji. That was my favourite part of the language by far.
    I can read hiragana and katakana no problem (albeit slowly) but struggling with Kanji, only know a dozen or so max :(
  • Mola_Ram 30 Sep 2019 18:36:21 23,529 posts
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    It might not feel like it at the beginning, but once you know more kanji you can read a lot faster. These days I find that I can comprehend a sentence much more easily with kanji (assuming I know the kanji) than I can with hiragana.

    It's like learning words with meanings, as opposed to just collections of sounds.
  • Armoured_Bear 30 Sep 2019 20:36:52 28,696 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    It might not feel like it at the beginning, but once you know more kanji you can read a lot faster. These days I find that I can comprehend a sentence much more easily with kanji (assuming I know the kanji) than I can with hiragana.

    It's like learning words with meanings, as opposed to just collections of sounds.
    I think that's the trickiest thing to get your head round, you're not reading words the way you're used to in European languages....
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 30 Sep 2019 22:37:02 3,890 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    It might not feel like it at the beginning, but once you know more kanji you can read a lot faster. These days I find that I can comprehend a sentence much more easily with kanji (assuming I know the kanji) than I can with hiragana.

    It's like learning words with meanings, as opposed to just collections of sounds.
    Definitely. Fan translating a katakana only NES game was a nightmare with the homonyms etc.
  • The_Goon 1 Oct 2019 12:51:50 1,451 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    It might not feel like it at the beginning, but once you know more kanji you can read a lot faster. These days I find that I can comprehend a sentence much more easily with kanji (assuming I know the kanji) than I can with hiragana.

    It's like learning words with meanings, as opposed to just collections of sounds.
    Do you recommend a particular method to learning Kanji? I've tried Heisig in the past but I'm not necessarily convinced its the best way to go.
  • Nazo 1 Oct 2019 13:15:16 1,305 posts
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    I found Heisig really good but I think it helps a lot that I was in Japan at the time and constantly exposed to kanji.
  • Mola_Ram 1 Oct 2019 13:31:30 23,529 posts
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    Is that the Remembering the Kanji guy?

    The problem I had with that method is that I came to it too late, so it would have required me to unlearn what I already knew and start again. Iirc his method doesn't teach the furigana readings of the kanji either, so it's less useful for that.

    As for what I did... there's no trick, really. I read a lot of shounen manga, anything that had the furigana readings on the side. I had a DS game called Nazotte! Oboete! Otona No Kanji Renshuu, which was great for practising kanji reading and writing. If you expose yourself to as much writing as you can, eventually you begin to pick up patterns, and can even guess a lot of words from their context.

    Reading lots, basically.
  • Nazo 1 Oct 2019 13:38:20 1,305 posts
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    Even if you donít bother with the story aspect Of Heisig just remembering the meanings gives your brain a point of reference and the more you have the more likely you are to remember. When I encounter a word I donít know I can often guess the meaning from the meanings of the kanji in it. And I can take a stab at the reading by working back from other words I remember the kanji being in.

    I think his basic idea is sound but yeah, I forgot he says you shouldnít learn anything else at the same time which I donít agree with.
  • tamatama 1 Oct 2019 13:45:12 18 posts
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    As others have said here, exposure to the language. I've not tried Helsig, but here are a few things I've found work for me. I've found a combination of vocab building - through reading, watching/listening, conversation practice - and then handwriting new words I encounter to be helpful. It helps to tie the various readings to concrete examples. And handwriting encourages me to 'break down' the kanji and get a better feel for them (I'd just been making notes on a phone/computer before).

    For reading, NHK News Web Easy has short, manageable articles with lots of furigana. It even highlights names, which can sometimes have non-standard readings. It's targeted at Japanese elementary and junior high kids. Kodansha's Bookwalker platform has a huge amount of free/sample material too, across a wide range of difficulty levels and topics.

    I also picked up some old DS software that I've found surprisingly useful. 'Tadashii Kanji Kakitori-kun' organises the Joyo kanji into school grade, then lists them by on-reading. The definitions and example words help with remembering and learning new things. If you like singing and have a Switch, the Joysound app on the Japanese eShop can be a fun way to learn. Another suggestion is changing your devices' language to Japanese. You'll soon start to pick up kanji for things like 'notification' and 'settings'.

    Long post...hope it's helpful!
  • Nazo 1 Oct 2019 13:58:10 1,305 posts
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    I find KanjiBox really good as well for drills. Thereís a paid app for iOS and a free web version.
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 1 Oct 2019 17:10:25 3,890 posts
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    I used to use kanji box when it was a Facebook app. Not tried it in years though. I have various DS kanji softs that I never used enough (apart from the essential kanji no sonomama rakubiki jiten dictionary which is still handy today and was a godsend back in 2008)

    Book wise I have used the Kanji in Context book series a few times and have just restarted on it recently. There is a slightly newer version than mine (the old joyo 1945+2 kanji as opposed to the newer set).

    Other than that I translate short stories and light novels, making sure to handwrite all of my lines for writing practice.

    I have considered getting PS4 joysound but no idea where to get an okay mic for the PS4 that will work. It used to be good practice while living in Japan though (in the actual Karaoke rooms of course)
  • The_Goon 1 Oct 2019 17:32:51 1,451 posts
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    Thanks, guys. I think I'll actually take a stab at Heisig again and try to be a bit more rigorous with it. I'll try to back it up with some vocab as well if I can find the time. I do like how he categorised kanji by radicals. Makes it much easier to learn than trying to learn by the different joyo kanji levels.

    Something is better than nothing.

    NHK Web Easy looks pretty decent too (thanks, tamatama). Managed to work my way through a few sentences of that with liberal use of a dictionary app.

    EDIT:

    食物のと酒以外の飲み物を買って
    Furigana in brackets (OR NOT...emojis bugger it) or as seen here - https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/k10012106681000/k10012106681000.html

    I can't figure out the bit about alcohol. Non-drink alcohol?

    Edited by The_Goon at 17:39:19 01-10-2019
  • Armoured_Bear 1 Oct 2019 17:42:04 28,696 posts
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    tamatama wrote:
    For reading, NHK News Web Easy has short, manageable articles with lots of furigana. It even highlights names, which can sometimes have non-standard readings. It's targeted at Japanese elementary and junior high kids.
    Looks good, thanks!
  • Mola_Ram 1 Oct 2019 17:43:39 23,529 posts
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    @The_Goon

    Probably non-alcoholic drinks.

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 17:44:09 01-10-2019
  • The_Goon 1 Oct 2019 17:45:50 1,451 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    @The_Goon

    Probably non-alcoholic drinks.
    I figured that too but I couldn't figure out the grammar of it.
  • Mola_Ram 1 Oct 2019 17:57:51 23,529 posts
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    It's not really a grammar thing, unless you count the 'no' particle.

    'Sake' means 'alcohol'. 'Igai' means 'outside' or 'without'. 'no' is a particle that modifies the noun that comes after it with whatever comes before it. And 'nomimono' (drink) comes after it, so literally it means 'drink with no alcohol'.

    (sorry, it's kind of hard to explain without being able to type Japanese text)
  • Armoured_Bear 1 Oct 2019 17:59:41 28,696 posts
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    I have a private class every week and 3/4 days a week have lunch in a Japanese Restaurant where two of the staff chat to me in Japanese.
    I really struggle to keep up with understanding them, my brain is too slow.
    Any tips for resources to improve understanding?
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 1 Oct 2019 18:33:16 3,890 posts
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    Listen to some audio stuff online? Crunchy roll has some slower anime such as Yamishibai.

    Forgot to mention re. Kanji that I didn't like the look of Heisig at all but if it works for you go for it.
  • The_Goon 1 Oct 2019 18:39:12 1,451 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    It's not really a grammar thing, unless you count the 'no' particle.

    'Sake' means 'alcohol'. 'Igai' means 'outside' or 'without'. 'no' is a particle that modifies the noun that comes after it with whatever comes before it. And 'nomimono' (drink) comes after it, so literally it means 'drink with no alcohol'.

    (sorry, it's kind of hard to explain without being able to type Japanese text)
    Ah cheers. The meaning I came across for "igai" was "except" which is why I was getting confused.
  • The_Goon 1 Oct 2019 18:39:48 1,451 posts
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    @One_Vurfed_Gwrx Any recommendations?
  • Mola_Ram 1 Oct 2019 19:41:53 23,529 posts
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    The_Goon wrote:
    Mola_Ram wrote:
    It's not really a grammar thing, unless you count the 'no' particle.

    'Sake' means 'alcohol'. 'Igai' means 'outside' or 'without'. 'no' is a particle that modifies the noun that comes after it with whatever comes before it. And 'nomimono' (drink) comes after it, so literally it means 'drink with no alcohol'.

    (sorry, it's kind of hard to explain without being able to type Japanese text)
    Ah cheers. The meaning I came across for "igai" was "except" which is why I was getting confused.
    Yeah, 'igai' is also used in that way. It just depends on context!
  • tamatama 1 Oct 2019 20:04:04 18 posts
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    One_Vurfed_Gwrx wrote:
    I have considered getting PS4 joysound but no idea where to get an okay mic for the PS4 that will work. It used to be good practice while living in Japan though (in the actual Karaoke rooms of course)
    Been using a wired Wii U mic. It does the job and feels pretty solid for the price. The PS4 Joysound site lists confirmed compatibility with the Wii U mics, Wii Joysound mic (white), a Sony condenser mic, and the awful earbuds/mic that come with the PS4.

    Donít know why I didnít think to look for Joysound on my PS4 before, so thanks for the heads up. Tickets are cheaper than on Switch, so might give it a go at some point.

    Also, if you have PSVR, there's dedicated support. The panoramic movies really hammer home that one would probably be doing VR karaoke on one's own though: snowboard date with Ďgirlfriendí, ikemen butlers attending your every (karaoke) whim, private singing lessons with a beautiful teacher!
  • tamatama 1 Oct 2019 20:06:33 18 posts
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    Youíre welcome - glad the NHK site looks helpful! Do people also have some light novel or short story recommendations? Donít worry about level - if theyíre too difficult Iíll add them to the tsundoku backlog.
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 1 Oct 2019 21:48:46 3,890 posts
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    The_Goon wrote:
    @One_Vurfed_Gwrx Any recommendations?
    I have never been too good at listening to audio only stuff, and don't even listen to Enish audio stuff (be that music or podcasts etc).

    Anime, I specified one example of a show that uses quite simple language at a slow pace so may be good practice, Yamishibai (7 seasons at 5 minutes an episode available on crunchy roll free).

    I use games too but I am higher level, finding beginner friendly stuff is hard. I have a set of graded readers with levels 1-4 which came with audio CDs too but not sure if they are cheaply available now.
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx 1 Oct 2019 21:50:33 3,890 posts
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    @tamatama I never thought of just checking the website... Now to see if I can find a cheap mic (not an audiophile here so should be easily pleased). I wouldn't use the buds and mini mic or any of this mobile phone shite they expect you to use with Singstar etc now :)

    Don't have PSVR.
  • tamatama 1 Oct 2019 22:14:59 18 posts
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    @One_Vurfed_Gwrx Ha! I hear you on that. I bought the Wii U mic off Amazon UK for just under £15 a month or so ago. Itís also worth downloading the Joysound companion phone/tablet app to get closer to the karaoke box experience (for entering songs, changing settings, etc.).
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