up_the_ante wrote:This is what it really comes down to. She should have taken the penalty gracefully, after maybe a quiet discussion with the umpire, and moved on. But she instead chose to believe it was a conspiracy against her and played the victim, ruining the experience for her opponent.
Then she, and some commentators, had the audacity to turn the whole thing into a women's rights issue. Just amazing.
The Tennis Thread (Wimbleton!) • Page 153
Zerobob 2,155 posts
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Lukus 21,559 posts
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@macmurphy Ahhh, thanks for that, good explanation.
So Serena being Serena then.
Duffking 15,949 posts
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The first violation was apparently a bit OTT since allegedly all the coaches do it and never get pulled up on it. Regardless, if it's still technically the rules so you can't really get upset over it. It's just a warning, right? Why let that get into your head?
Second one for racket abuse... well, you know that's the rule, so... don't do it? Or do it, and just... accept the penalty. Because it's the rules. Easy. Like, just don't lose your fucking shit over 1 point, it can't be hard. It wasn't even on her serve.
Third one for abusive behaviour... well, just don't be abusive. Easy.
She really doesn't have anything to complain about.
Edited by Duffking at 12:20:58 09-09-2018
Yeah. What Duff said. I donít watch enough tennis but (listing to the pundits) I think the problem with coaching is twofold, one that itís allowed out of slams and two that itís not always picked up on.
Another problem is that (inevitably) the player is punished as ifvits their fault when of course they have no control over the coaches actions. I think they can send coach from stands and (maybe?) warn player so coach can hear, and that should force them to stop it?
Serena kept going on about her not being a cheat, not having a system of hand signals but the coach clearly was coaching with a hand signal which is against the rules - heís admitted as much. It probably hurt Serena because she was docked the point which makes her at fault, even though itís her coach thatís cheating not her (I guess sheís complicit though). But as others have pointed out itís apparently quite widespread and Ramos was unusual in both punishing her and for not warning her first.
But crucially he just applied the rules of the game. Nothing he did was wrong. She was just under pressure and basically lost it.
But people are saying today the victory will have an asterisk by it. Which is bollocks. Osakaís beaten her before, and apparently Osaka was like 31/31 in terms of victories after winning first set this year.
Serena was a class act after the game but not during it and the referee was just doing his job, albeit in a very precise way with no attempt at giving Serena any leeway.
Slint1000 3,112 posts
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senso-ji 8,995 posts
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I respect and admire Serena but she got it wrong this time. She was ranting at the Umpire several times before she got the penalty - Ramos was showing leniency for several change overs before he decided enough was enough. He was right to do it. Serena has history at the US Open - she was docked a game for threatening a line judge in 2009 and docked a point for insulting the Umpire in the 2011 final. These all add up against her.
Sad for Osaka - she has emerged as a great talent that fulfilled her potential, but did it in an ugly match marred by Serena's on court histrionics. Hope she doesn't let this get to her and she goes on and wins more tournaments.
Even the WTA has come out with an official statement in support of Williams, even though the pundits I've seen all agree that all 3 violations were probably legit.
fontgeeksogood 4,303 posts
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If she was less black and female none of this mess would be happening. Hopefully she learns from this and comes back with a penis and whiter skin
jrmat 30 posts
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The tennis governing body have back the umpire. Didn't see it myself but from what have heard she was losing and her efforts at 'gamesmanship' failed and she made tennis look stupid for it in the process.
Mola_Ram 19,080 posts
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The first call was iffy.
But do you know what other sport features questionable umpiring decisions? All of them, across gender, age and experience. It happens, and players need to deal with it.
In Serena's case, she might have been remembering that time in 2004 where objectively poor umpiring cost her the match. But this wasn't like that - there was one iffy decision, and the rest resulted from how she reacted to it.
I've seen a few places mention it being sexist? How? Seems like she was just being a bit of a cunt and was punished for it. What's sexism got to do with it?
There is a double standard at play, Djokovic, Murray and others have done and said worse things to that specific ref with no repurcussions.
I am just regurgitating from this https://youtu.be/BvXJOnoFgqc
I don't really follow tennis but surely anyone calling the umpire a liar and a thief would be penalised in the same way?
They should have beheaded her with an axe in the shape of a tennis racket.
Did she really lose a point for the first (coaching) warning? I thought it was just a first warning, then she lost a point for breaking her racket and then the game for being rude. But I don't care enough to watch the game again to make sure.
Yeah, I just thought people in this thread were saying she lost a point for the first warning as well.
I HAVEN'T HAD ANY RULEBOOKS QUOTED AT ME RECENTLY, IT'S SO REFRESHING AND NICE.
Edited by dominalien at 17:26:52 11-09-2018
Yeah I said that.
Google says I got it wrong but to be clear she was given code violation for coaching. So it was an official reprimand and part of three strike process.
Apparently some umpires just give you a verbal warning and not a code violation, Ramos didnít give her any.
To be fair that was ok, maybe a bit tough not to warn first. Racquet abuse was inevitable.
The argument comes on whether he takes more abuse from guys. I think Ramos was fine for the first two, itís the third one that people are arguing about.
Edit: re whether he takes more abuse from men. I wonder how you measure the amount of abuse anyway.
Well, this I don't know. I do remember when she broke her racket she continued complaining about the coaching warning and just kept escalating the whole thing. I can see someone getting annoyed by that and not be willing to cut her any slack.
Still, all those sexism and racism arguments hold real power these days, no matter if justified or not, so I'm guessing this will go on for a time with possibly real repercussions for the umpire regardless of whether he was in the right or not.
Edited by dominalien at 17:40:17 11-09-2018
Zomeguy wrote:Thereís a difference. The code violation is official. The first one is called a warning.
Ramos is known for being strict.
Every umpire will give a penalty for questioning his integrity, its worse than slurs. Most people are just not aware of that.
Oh and the first violation *is* a warning.
You can also just get a verbal warning that isnít a code violation.
Itís important because in essence itís an official reprimand for cheating.
I watched sleepís YouTube video and some others and I canít find a smoking gun that shows him being sexist. He has got verbal abuse from other players but that was right after heís just penalised them. Makes sense heíd punish them once and wait for them to shut up, and not immediately escalate. I think this is where some videos are cut to show him getting abuse and taking it.
Not sure thatís the same as someone continually haranguing you time after time in court changeovers as Serena did. She gave him a lot of shit before he dropped the hammer.
People are saying guys donít suffer same but it seems more like some referees are more lax than Ramos and this is the inconsistency. Most reports Iíve seen have said heís been pretty reliable in his intransigence.
Donít know, maybe someone can find a better video than Iíve seen.
And to be clear Iím not saying he had the best match. Felt it did get out of hand. Iím just struggling to see racist or sexist undertones.
Edited by macmurphy at 17:53:05 11-09-2018
AaronTurner 10,236 posts
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When I watch the video I just see a person acting like a wee spoilt brat, ruining the occasion for the other competitor.
I know nothing about tennis though.
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