Following Star Trek Page 243

  • Razz 7 Apr 2020 12:07:37 715 posts
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    Basically replicants/skin jobs
  • RGeefe 7 Apr 2020 12:21:33 985 posts
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    So what we're all saying is it was probably just a cash in? A very expensively produced cash in but one nonetheless
  • drhickman1983 7 Apr 2020 12:57:11 6,694 posts
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    I'm not saying that, I overall enjoyed it.

    And to be honest, as far as inconsistencies and ignoring of prior events go it's on par with the TNG series itself.

    I mean, although I myself call out some of the omissions in Picard, the series its based on is actually just as, if not more, guilty of doing so...

    Edited by drhickman1983 at 12:57:37 07-04-2020
  • creepiest-lizard 7 Apr 2020 13:02:55 1,340 posts
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    @drhickman1983
    But TNG had better writing, better characters, better stories, more heart and soul, optimism, consistent themes, no pointless shock value violence though....
  • jrmat 7 Apr 2020 13:11:40 199 posts
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    creepiest-lizard wrote:
    @drhickman1983
    But TNG had better writing, better characters, better stories, more heart and soul, optimism, consistent themes, no pointless shock value violence though....
    Yes
  • drhickman1983 7 Apr 2020 13:12:01 6,694 posts
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    @creepiest-lizard

    It *sometimes* had better writing. I've been rewatching it recently, on the final season now and let's be honest, a good portion of episodes are pretty clunky. At its best it's better, no arguments there, but it's not consistent.

    I liked Picard, and it's a worthy addition to the canon. It's not perfect, but the flaws are nothing unique to the franchise.

    Edited by drhickman1983 at 13:13:11 07-04-2020
  • creepiest-lizard 7 Apr 2020 13:20:56 1,340 posts
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    @drhickman1983
    The flaws are not unique since Kurtzman and Abrams got their greasy hands on it.
    For sure the franchise has its ropy moments but even Voyager (which I hate) pisses all over Picard as its still recognisable as star trek.
    Even the bad episodes of tng, and yeah, there are loads, are just so much more watchable than this thing.
    Obviously, anybody can like what they want and all that but for the life of me I honetsly cannot understand how anybody who has liked actual real Star Trek in the past can look on this modern incarnation with anything but revulsion but hey, thats just me.
  • drhickman1983 7 Apr 2020 13:25:59 6,694 posts
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    I fully disgree, some TNG, DS9 and Vger episodes are much worse than anything in Picard.

    And I for the life of me can't understand why people are so hypercritical.

    Edited by drhickman1983 at 13:27:11 07-04-2020
  • RGeefe 7 Apr 2020 13:40:32 985 posts
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    I think another issue is previous Treks had at least double the amount of episodes per series as this, so you kind of accept that there will be a lot of guff - which there definitely is.

    They had only 10 episodes and still squandered most of them. Plus the quality of TV for TNG era was much less. I've said it to others. This show isn't just an episodic tale of space adventures where its contemporaries are Doctor Who, X Files, etc. It's move into serialisation which means it's now in the company of Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, The Walking Dead and the Marvel stuff.

    I no longer go "well that one was kind of sucky but next week's might be cool". I go "this story is fucking stupid and I'm only half way through the series, I'm not going to bother with the rest"
  • drhickman1983 7 Apr 2020 13:46:34 6,694 posts
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    But I genuinely didn't find it that bad, at no point did I consider stop watching.

    I'm a long term Star Trek can and i enjoyed it.
  • Steve-Perry 7 Apr 2020 13:46:42 1,313 posts
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    @RGeefe Well said. I get tired of the "but TNG was shit until Riker grew a beard" argument. It's a totally different landscape now, it's not a valid comparison.

    Edited by Steve-Perry at 13:47:04 07-04-2020
  • drhickman1983 7 Apr 2020 13:51:10 6,694 posts
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    Okay, in today's climate I enjoyed it.

    To put it up against the contemporaries, it's not as good as The Expanse but I probably enjoyed it more than say, Lost in Space or Westworld (which I do think is overblown wank)
  • Technoishmatt 7 Apr 2020 13:58:12 4,130 posts
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    Picard was indeed doddering but that was Stewart acting the brain abnormality. He became much more fluent and smooth after he was "fixed".

    I broadly enjoyed it but agree with most of the points about weird plot holes. If it had been a two parter in a series that would have been enough and it would have been fine. There are so many ST episodes that are basically about saving the galaxy / federation it wouldnt have been out of place. It just dragged on with weird dead ends.

    I dont agree with those that say the writers and creators dont care about ST. There are a huge number of references in each episode to previous ST stories, places, people and events.

    Also, why can't we have captain badass, I mean, Riker in his own series? His confident ultimatum to the romulans was super TNG era style.
  • Steve-Perry 7 Apr 2020 14:42:54 1,313 posts
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    If Kurtzman cared about Star Trek he would resign immediately. He doesn't have a clue.

    References are just member berries. Kurtzman learned from JJ - make shit blow up, put things in there that remind them of the old shit, have a mystery box story and move the plot along at 1 million miles an hour so nobody has time to question any of the nonsense going on.

    Star Trek Into Darkness had tribbles, Khan and a dozen other links to TOS and they were all implemented woefully (magic blood, Khan's reveal). References aren't used by these guys because they love or have a deep understanding of the series (JJ and Kurtzman have publicly admitted they didn't even watch it before being money hatted), they're used because they're cynical hacks and its another lazy way to garner a bit of goodwill.

    Edited by Steve-Perry at 14:43:48 07-04-2020
  • drhickman1983 7 Apr 2020 15:03:48 6,694 posts
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    That really wasn't my impression but I guess well have to just disagree.
  • Steve-Perry 7 Apr 2020 15:10:39 1,313 posts
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    I don't understand your point, but happy to disagree. I've said a lot, Picard was a (very small) step in the right direction, I can see why people like it, but to me it was bang average.

    Chabon himself said the bar for TV sci fi is BSG. Well, they haven't got to within a country mile of it in 3 attempts.

    Edited by Steve-Perry at 15:11:24 07-04-2020
  • BinaryBob101 8 Apr 2020 00:44:50 27,748 posts
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    Steve-Perry wrote:
    They barely mentioned 1 of his daughters after she got snuffed, so it would be a lot to ask for them to remember Lore.

    Thinking back to the first 2 episodes of this, it started really strong. Decent links to TNG, Picard just going around being a bit of a detective, his Romulan helpers were interesting characters, slow pace.

    Cut to the end and its Roger Space Ninja, Captain Edgelord, Madame Cliched Alcoholic Trope and Lady Whimsy McMurderer on-board the USS Nonedescript flying round doing stupid shit at a million miles per hour.
    All of this made me nod along in agreement then howl with laughter. Nice one.
  • Technoishmatt 8 Apr 2020 00:54:58 4,130 posts
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    BSG is very different. Nothing like ST?
  • RichDC 8 Apr 2020 07:50:02 8,856 posts
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    BSG is arguably the best sci-fi series of the last 15 years and was very different to anything that come before it. Its had a huge influence on almost everything that's come after with to many series now trying to be dark, serious and slow when it doesn't always suit or with writers that don't actually know how to do it. See Stargate Universe for an obvious example.
  • Steve-Perry 8 Apr 2020 08:13:00 1,313 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    BSG is very different. Nothing like ST?
    Well they lifted bits wholesale in Picard.

    It shouldn't be anything like it really, but they don't have any good ideas of their own.
  • jrmat 8 Apr 2020 08:30:49 199 posts
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    BSG was the child of Ron Moore, check him out, he was a writer for TNG and DS9, think he did a couple of VOY episodes only. So based on that dubious logic ST could be way way better. Perhaps that's it, when Star Trek was at its pique it was because the showrunners and writers were exceptional, now they aren't. Wish Ron Moore could be involved again and some of the others, would get a much better series.
  • Nazo 8 Apr 2020 08:32:04 1,328 posts
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    BSG is overrated in my opinion. The first season was amazing but it rapidly descended into making it up as they go along nonsense. The conclusion was even worse than any of the shit new Star Trek has come up with.
    B5 would be a better role model to for long-form sci-fi story telling.
  • Technoishmatt 8 Apr 2020 08:42:35 4,130 posts
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    Massively overrated.
  • nickthegun 8 Apr 2020 09:14:21 81,772 posts
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    Sci-Fi took a long time to get over BSG, if it ever did. It was so influential, in so many ways that it pretty much set a template for most things that followed.

    Shorter seasons, full season story arcs and, probably the worst thing, sci-fi became a throwaway backdrop for turgid, potboiling interpersonal conflicts.

    For years, you didnt really get sci-fi, you just got boring melodrama that just happened to have a sci-fi background. Like Terra Nova. A series set against the wonder of the beginnings on life on earth and every episode is just some guy arguing with his family. Or Stargate: Whatever. A series set against the wonders of an ancient starship and the crew just bitch and moan at each other.

    I really, really loved BSG, I will even act as an apologist for the ending. I did not love all the cheap copies it spawned and the complete direction it took science fiction.
  • creepiest-lizard 8 Apr 2020 10:04:02 1,340 posts
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    Itís no coincidence that Ronald Moore was responsible for some of the best tng episodes.
  • General_Martok 8 Apr 2020 10:24:59 1,236 posts
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    Moore was also responsible for DS9's turnaround from dogshit to epic.
  • Steve-Perry 8 Apr 2020 10:32:09 1,313 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    Massively overrated.
    🙄
  • nickthegun 8 Apr 2020 10:34:21 81,772 posts
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    Our rewatch of DS9 is pretty much complete and you would have a tough time convincing me that its not The Best One.

    I understand and care about every character, I enjoyed the ongoing stories, I enjoyed the bottle episodes (even the traditionally lame holodeck ones) and the overall tone is just wonderful.

    Its such a stark contrast to Voyager, which you can hardly believe was running in parallel.
  • Steve-Perry 8 Apr 2020 10:34:34 1,313 posts
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    BSG did go downhill, but it was better than any of this new star trek. Even the worst episodes you can point to, it's still a class above.

    The main narrative went tits up towards the end, but it was still a lot more coherent, interesting and logical than the dogs dinner of Discovery's disastrous plot arcs.

    And regardless of story arcs, it will always win for one simple reason:

    It had an abundance of great, interesting, well written characters.

    New trek has 2d boring duffers at 10 a penny.

    Edited by Steve-Perry at 10:44:39 08-04-2020
  • Steve-Perry 8 Apr 2020 10:35:38 1,313 posts
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    And is so overrated that Picard is completely enamoured with it.
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