Oh-Bollox wrote: No, they aren't and it depends. From what we know Tales and Final Fantasy, are supposedly targeted toward teenagers. Dragon Quest is all ages, kind of like Nintendo, its popular with everyone from old people to little kids, so there's no particular aim there, though in the beginning it was marketed in a youth magazine and continues to be advertised in said magazine, it makes little difference in its impact. Pokemon is obviously geared toward children, though Nintendo's marketing for Heart Gold/Soul Silver heavily relied on appealing to graduated, grown-up Pokemon players and since then, according to Nintendo, a sizable chunk of the Pokemon consumer base are adult players and that continued with Black and White, according to them. Elsewhere, Monster Hunter is famously hot with 13 to 30 year old males and famously not hot out of that narrow demographic, while Phantasy Star Online is broader, but not as popular. Wizardry and From Software titles tend to be marketed to adults, but there are exceptions. Gust, before they became the Ar Tonelico, pretty much exclusively made RPGs for women and Nippon Ichi exclusively developed them for little girls before Disgaea. Mysterious Dungeon titles hew much older (as in past 30) for the Shiren and Dragon Quest offshoots and much younger for the Pokemon and Chocobo ones. Atlus maintained Persona for teenagers and some handheld Pokemon-alikes for children, but other than that market almost all of their games to adult 20somethings, especially the Etrian Odyssey games. As for Level 5, Inazuma Eleven and Cardboard Battlers are for kids and Ni no Kuni The Another World, is, like Dragon Quest, a family property. White Knight Chronicles, Dark Cloud and Rogue Galaxy are aimed at trendy people in general -- they tend to be marketed only in places where there is a thriving nightlife, so I guess younger, but I wouldn't know how young. Falcom, since time immemorial, is famous for their stance that that makes games do not have heavy violence or sex, but other than that don't make any distinction whatsoever. Many of the other PC RPG developers make RPGs almost exclusively for adults (and no, I don't--always--mean in that sense), so this is why Falcom stands out. Most of Bandai's RPG properties skew heavily with the age group who watch their shows, so its all over the place. Random RPG #224 since the Famicom days is dependent on its origin. The reason why RPGs sell over here is most likely because there's a lot of diversity in who their marketed to, including a lot more marketing aimed at women. |
Radiant Historia • Page 2
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JinTypeNoir 4,368 posts
Seen 7 years ago
Registered 16 years ago -
Oh-Bollox 6,513 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 14 years agoIs it so wrong to want a protagonist who uses a razor for shaving instead of cutting themselves? -
Jin, your argument seems to be 'child protagonists in everything is fine because the writers say they are'. Does that also hold true for for the 8-year-old Loli that's the love interest for one of the characters in Star Ocean IV? Do you not think it's possible for a writer to ever get something wrong?
It's not just with me. I also criticise authors for repeatedly making the protagonist a writer. It's lazy, repeating the same old tropes again and again. -
JinTypeNoir wrote:
It's a particular nerdish kind of criticism to cling to idea of plot realism in stories like this when their ideas of what is and isn't plausible or how it contributes or detracts from a story actually show them up to be worse critics than understanding that it makes no difference.
Wow. So you never consider the age of the protagonists in a story at all? What about where romance is concerned, or where characters display experience they couldn't possibly have? Or when one character has a mentor/leader role over people much older than them?
Or why nobody really cares that average joe sleuths just happen to run across a crime or murder they can solve when they wake up in the morning.
When you show me the hard-drinking, twice-divorced ex-cop sleuth where it doesn't matter that he's 14 years old I'll admit you have a point. Or does age and life experience, perhaps, matter to the Marlowe-esque detective with the private-eye skill set and contacts? And, if it matters to him, maybe it also matters to our 17-year-old veteran mercenaries/intelligence operatives.
Just like it doesn't matter that eternal spirits of time are represented in the game as a little boy and a little girl.
Those characters are non-human, magical creatures. The protagonists we are discussing are normal humans who are supposed to have been killing adult soldiers when barely able to dress themselves.
Age is only an element in a good plot when it needs to be
So why always adolescents then, especially as you say above that they aren't always the target market? Surely, if age only matters when it needs to, we would see a spread of ages across JRPG protagonists.
The worst writers are the ones who shake things up just because
Fear that originality!
If it bothers you that much, you can change the ages in your mind if you want,.
Thanks for your permission, and the insults. Bear in mind that I do actually like the game, as I said on page one, and JRPGs in general, particularly DQ and Etrian Odyssey. My viewpoint seems like a common enough one on EG, and I'm happy to debate the point, but it's hardly conductive to discussion when you begin every post with the statement 'your opinion is retarded.' -
JinTypeNoir 4,368 posts
Seen 7 years ago
Registered 16 years agoredcrayon wrote:
Jin, your argument seems to be 'child protagonists in everything is fine because the writers say they are'. Does that also hold true for for the 8-year-old Loli that's the love interest for one of the characters in Star Ocean IV? Do you not think it's possible for a writer to ever get something wrong?
Don't be ridiculous by claiming something I never even implied. First of all, no one you can romance in Star Ocean IV is eight years old. If that was the case, Square Enix would have never in a million years published the game. The youngest is 15, which, by the way is the age of consent for women over here. Second of all, age of the characters has nothing to do with how badly Star Ocean IV is written. Third, ever since people in the West found out about Lolita and Shota manga and anime tropes, they assume even the briefest hint of it is full-on usage of the practice, which again, is pretty retarded. Fourth, that Star Ocean IV does use those otaku cliches is a sign of its bad writing, not the reason for its bad writing. Just about everything about its story from its setting to its animation is awful and has very little to do with the age of the characters.
That's like Duke Nukem Forever turned out bad because the volume wasn't high enough. -
By the way, that '15-year-old, age-of-consent' character looks about 8, which brings me back to what I mentioned earlier about the ages given in the manual differing wildly from the art.
here's a team shot, on the left.
But anyway, this is going off on a tangent. I brought it up as a counter-point to you saying that whether something is inappropriate is up to the writer, not as a stick to beat JRPGs or you with. Allow me to try again-
You said-
What is and isn't appropriate is up to the person who's making up the story.
to which I replied
Jin, your argument seems to be 'child protagonists in everything is fine because the writers say they are'.
How is that misrepresenting your position? Most JRPGs have very young protagonists. Your quote says that the writer can't possibly add inappropriate elements if it's their story, which is poor logic.
As an aside, the general poorness of SOIV is perhaps a reason why your statement 'I think we get it right' is as much of a sweeping, arrogant generalisation as if I had said it about western games. -
JinTypeNoir 4,368 posts
Seen 7 years ago
Registered 16 years agoredcrayon wrote:
JinTypeNoir wrote:
It's a particular nerdish kind of criticism to cling to idea of plot realism in stories like this when their ideas of what is and isn't plausible or how it contributes or detracts from a story actually show them up to be worse critics than understanding that it makes no difference.
Wow. So you never consider the age of the protagonists in a story at all? What about where romance is concerned, or where characters display experience they couldn't possibly have? Or when one character has a mentor/leader role over people much older than them?
Or why nobody really cares that average joe sleuths just happen to run across a crime or murder they can solve when they wake up in the morning.
When you show me the hard-drinking, twice-divorced ex-cop sleuth where it doesn't matter that he's 14 years old I'll admit you have a point. Or does age and life experience, perhaps, matter to the Marlowe-esque detective with the private-eye skill set and contacts? And, if it matters to him, maybe it also matters to our 17-year-old veteran mercenaries/intelligence operatives.
Just like it doesn't matter that eternal spirits of time are represented in the game as a little boy and a little girl.
Those characters are non-human, magical creatures. The protagonists we are discussing are normal humans who are supposed to have been killing adult soldiers when barely able to dress themselves.
Age is only an element in a good plot when it needs to be
So why always adolescents then, especially as you say above that they aren't always the target market?
The worst writers are the ones who shake things up just because
Fear that originality!
If it bothers you that much, you can change the ages in your mind if you want,.
Thanks for your permission, and the insults. Bear in mind that I do actually like the game, as I said on page one, and JRPGs in general, particularly DQ and Etrian Odyssey. My viewpoint seems like a common enough one on EG, and I'm happy to debate the point, but it's hardly conductive to discussion when you begin every post with the statement 'your opinion is retarded.'
Your opinion is absolutely, rolling on the floor, cackling and drooling, retarded. When you chop up what I say, then throw back absolutely ridiculous things I did not say or imply.
Obviously in the first case, "in stories like this", does not imply that I never think its relevant? Or perhaps, I don't know, where I point out RPGs where it is relevant before you brought that up. How is that NOT retarded? Coming from my point of view, how would I not see that kind of comeback as eye-roll-worthy? 17 and 19 are killing adult soldiers when you're hardly able to dress yourself? How on Earth does that type of hyperbole help you? What, in order to be convincing they must have been in the army since Kindergarten to you?
Why adolescents in most cases? Mostly because the stories in RPGs are created on a formula and that's just part of the formula, keeping the main characters on the younger side, usually means they can work with a blanker slate which is ideal to these RPGs are made. (This is the same reason that save the world plot lines are still around, its a good formula to invent monsters and trials, but like age, developers these days no longer put any real story emphasis on that part and that there are a good deal of RPGs that have found ways of providing the same thing outside that limit, so it remains a strong frame.) Those developers who don't want to go by it obviously, don't. And what you said helps prove what I'm saying. They often don't change the age of the characters to match the players because they are well aware that it isn't an issue in their biggest market. And let me tell you, nobody but nobody but no one complains about this over here. I've NEVER heard it come up once, not once.
Cliches are not set-ups like "a young hero saves the world," since inside that you can place any number of elements that make it anything but. A cliche is closer to classic 8-bit/16-bit opening of a hero waking up from a dream inside their house or their village getting burned down. The entire idea is that they've been used so much they lose their impact. "A youth sets off on an adventure" is too vague to be a cliche and there's no detail in there that tells us what its going to be like. It has same power to create an incredible story today as it does 3000 years ago. That's where most RPGs start from and why it doesn't matter.
Take The Witcher and compare it to The White Witch. The Witcher is quite far removed from the formula I've described -- however, its very cliched by the standards of a Western fantasy novel. The White Witch does take from the formula I've described, but is notable and regarded as a classic because there are very few cliches and the story is extremely original (its about people's reactions to a prophet and a middle ages setting discovering their world is actually a planet for the first time). It has no villains, the main conflict is not even between characters and the entire time the countryside is in peace and prosperity; its about uneasiness and fear. (By the by, you apparently can't play a decent version of The White Witch in English, so I don't recommend playing it.)
As for that ridiculous fear change remark, you know you're just stirring shit up. "I want to tell the story of a much older main character" is a good motivation for telling a story. "I want to change the age of the usual character, because that would be neat and different," isn't, obviously. Because what you're likely going to get is the same thing in the latter and something has a much better chance of being good when its inspired by a thought like the former. -
I said the characters were veterans. I.E. they would have to be killing people for what, 5 years? That would make them 12 when they started.
Any response to my point about age being important to investigative characters?
And 'I want to change the age of the usual character, because it would be neat and different,' is a great motivation for telling a story, not a poor one. As opposed to your defence of telling the same story again and again in case you tell it badly. And how is that stirring shit up? You have just confirmed my point.
Because you have never heard it in Japan doesn't make it irrelevant on Eurogamer, or a drooling, retarded point. I play games with all kinds of protagonists. Some old, some young, some Eastern, some Western, some good. Some bad. You make some good points, I might even be happy to concede some of them if you weren't so bloody offensive or bizarrely protective of the JRPG genre. I critique them because I play them. -
JinTypeNoir 4,368 posts
Seen 7 years ago
Registered 16 years agoredcrayon wrote:
What is and isn't appropriate is up to the person who's making up the story.
to which I replied
Jin, your argument seems to be 'child protagonists in everything is fine because the writers say they are'.
How is that misrepresenting your position? Most JRPGs have very young protagonists. You're quote says that the writer can't add inappropriate elements if it's their story, which is poor logic.
You quoted it above. Can you physically read? No, of course you can. What you quote was in context to age in RPG stories. What is and isn't appropriate for the story. What you did was chop it down to one sentence to make it look like I said what you're trying to make me look I'm saying. I know this trick. I've seen it a billion times. It's not going to work. You know I'm not arguing something that ridiculous.
I'm not going to spend my time arguing with this kind of hideously cowardly arguing tactic. You don't have a leg to stand on and you know it.
When I said we get it right I was speaking about people who don't have any problem with age in these types of games.
Star Ocean 2 has a general age level that's even lower than IV, and the youngest character is 12 years old. It's story and characters are way better than Star Ocean IV. Again, the problem with Star Ocean IV is not some of its character's ages, its that they are composed of nothing but fodder for the various fetishes (clumsy glasses girl, oafish man who doesn't under feelings well) it caters to. They essentially only move because the designers are pandering to all sorts. Second Story doesn't have this problem at all, because the characters aren't simply receptacles for idiocy. Second Story's success and IV's failure, again, having nothing to do with the age of the characters. -
JinTypeNoir 4,368 posts
Seen 7 years ago
Registered 16 years agoredcrayon wrote:
I said the characters were veterans. I.E. they would have to be killing people for what, 5 years? That would make them 12 when they started.
This is perhaps one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the internet. In a fantasy kingdom of a fantasy world where it is not even touched upon, how on earth do you come up with something like that? 5 years? What arbitrary distinction is that? For all you know, this culture could consider you a veteran from anywhere to 20 years to 3 weeks or whatever in between. There are a hundred one different ways to rationalize or make it look funny, depending on how you think of it.
The bottom line is that there isn't the issue of a story breaking down because of the age of the characters make things implausible like many often point out. This is high school level story criticism that doesn't go any deeper then, "I don't buy it, grandma!"
And 'I want to change the age of the usual character, because it would be neat and different,' is a great motivation for telling a story, not a poor one. As opposed to your defence of telling the same story again and again in case you tell it badly. And how is that stirring shit up? You have just confirmed my point.
This is not an argument, this is stupid pointing and shrieking. All you've said is its a great motivation. You haven't bothered to give any reason like I did. In fact, I'm the one doing all the work here.
Because you have never heard it in Japan doesn't make it irrelevant on Eurogamer, or a drooling, retarded point. I play games with all kinds of protagonists. Some old, some young, some Eastern, some Western, some good. Some bad. You make some good points, I might even be happy to concede some of them if you weren't so bloody offensive or bizarrely protective of the JRPG genre. I critique them because I play them.
It's irrelevant, because its dumb and it comes from a history of scathingly dumb criticism that gets dumber every day. "I critique them because I play them." Your opinion and your criticism aren't unique beautiful snowflakes just because you have them. I've given all sorts of good arguments. All you have is shit on a sling. -
JinTypeNoir wrote:
And 'I want to change the age of the usual character, because it would be neat and different,' is a great motivation for telling a story, not a poor one. As opposed to your defence of telling the same story again and again in case you tell it badly. And how is that stirring shit up? You have just confirmed my point.
This is not an argument, this is stupid pointing and shrieking. All you've said is its a great motivation. You haven't bothered to give any reason like I did. In fact, I'm the one doing all the work here.
Jin, the only shrieking going on here is you flying off the handle and calling my opinion retarded multiple times bacause it doesn't match yours. I thought it could be an interesting discussion, which is why I brought up the point of age and experience being relevant to private eyes and senior army officers. If you need a reason to change the age of the protagonist, then I stand by 'to make it dfferent from the hundreds of identikit JRPG leads.' Call it 'identikit adolescent leads in games in general' if it helps to defuse some of your prickliness over the genre. Adult characters can be refreshing, they allow room for past mistakes, interesting character flaws that are deeper than 'a bit sulky', history, dependents, all relevant to adult life. Child lead characters struggle to differentiate between themselves, a problem tied to being a blank slate. I know you think that's an advantage, but come on Jin, you've clearly played more JRPGs than me, how many leads would you say are 'optimistic, with issues regarding their parents, but very protective of their friends, always tries to do the right thing'. 20? 50? 100? Any chance of an answer that isn't a pile of insults? If you don't agree, fine. You can say so without being a dick about it.
Because you have never heard it in Japan doesn't make it irrelevant on Eurogamer, or a drooling, retarded point. I play games with all kinds of protagonists. Some old, some young, some Eastern, some Western, some good. Some bad. You make some good points, I might even be happy to concede some of them if you weren't so bloody offensive or bizarrely protective of the JRPG genre. I critique them because I play them.
It's irrelevant, because its dumb and it comes from a history of scathingly dumb criticism that gets dumber every day. "I critique them because I play them." Your opinion and your criticism aren't unique beautiful snowflakes just because you have them. I've given all sorts of good arguments. All you have is shit on a sling.
Sorry, but I'm not required to look up a history of every online spat about games, taking them into account each time I post. Your opinion is also not a unique snowflake (in fact it's one of the most stubborn, refusing to concede an inch, that I've seen) and looking back over this thread, it certainly isn't pretty either. I've enjoyed discussing JRPGs with you in the past, and have no idea why you've taken what was some fairly light criticism of the genre so much to heart. -
FabricatedLunatic 13,125 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 16 years agoWell, this thread took a downward turn. No wonder it was abandoned...
Anyway, in case anyone missed it first time around, Atlus have reprinted Radiant Historia, and it's in stock at VPG and PlanetAxel RIGHT NOW. I've had my copy for what must be going on a year now, but still haven't played it. Should probably get around to that. -
santashi 5,167 posts
Seen 7 years ago
Registered 10 years agoThanks for posting that! I'd been checking PlanetAxel every day for weeks waiting for them to list Radiant Historia again and I'd just about given up on them. Great news! 
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chrisno21 2,488 posts
Seen 4 days ago
Registered 13 years agoYep good news, ordered! Will be dusting off the old XL for this. -
YenRug 4,553 posts
Seen 1 year ago
Registered 14 years agoWow, ermm, interesting discussion at the top of this page.
Anyway, just had this come on from Play-Asia, they were selling it relatively cheap a few weeks back. Stuck it on for a quick go, on my 3DS XL, last thing on Thursday night...
Let's just say, last save was 9 hours 22 minutes played already. Absolutely loving it, keeping me away from EOIV! -
santashi 5,167 posts
Seen 7 years ago
Registered 10 years agoI never actually ended up getting it (PlanetAxel went bust), and now you're tempting me all over again... especially if it's good enough to steer you away from EOIV! -
YenRug 4,553 posts
Seen 1 year ago
Registered 14 years ago@santashi Still going for $24.99 (about £16), says it's a limited time offer, normally $44.90.
http://www.play-asia.com/radiant-historia-paOS-13-49-en-70-4777.html
The combat is some of the best fun I've had in an RPG for years, positively cries out for you to use skills to rearrange enemies so that you group them together for combo hits, but it doesn't do the criminal design flaw in most games where they make using skills too expensive. -
Heh, yeah, that discussion did get out of hand quite quickly 
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Rajin 830 posts
Seen 41 minutes ago
Registered 12 years ago@YenRug
I actually don't like the combat that much, it more or less ends up with concieving, building up a huge attack with a emphasize on magic for most part of the game. -
FabricatedLunatic 13,125 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 16 years agoI liked the combat at first but by the time I reached the final third of the game, it had become tiresome. Because it's built around herding enemies onto a single square and damaging them all together, single attacks and magic are relatively weak. What this means, I found, is that unless you want battles to drag on interminably, you had to do the herding thing over and over again.
It doesn't help that even with stat-boosting items, the characters' speed stats are all pitifully low, resulting in as many as 6 or 7 enemies laying into you before you can even do anything.
And one final complaint would be that you can't get the best ending without completing ALL of the character side quests. A right arseache unless following a walkthrough, that. I couldn't be bothered with that or the increasingly tedious combat so I quit after about 35 hours. Shame because the game has some nice ideas and a decent story. -
YenRug 4,553 posts
Seen 1 year ago
Registered 14 years agoFinally finished this on Monday, completion time of 63 hours 58 minutes...
I'm missing one side quest, but it's deliberately hard and optional with regard to getting the best ending. -
Humperfunk 8,634 posts
Seen 2 hours ago
Registered 9 years agoIgnoring the derping dribbles of Jin above, an enhanced version is coming to 3DS next Feb.
Great news, I actually imported it on DS and fucking lost it after five hours gameplay when moving house so can actually give it another go. -
Humperfunk 8,634 posts
Seen 2 hours ago
Registered 9 years agoIn fact good to see my old profile on the previous page! What a great man. -
One_Vurfed_Gwrx 4,467 posts
Seen 2 hours ago
Registered 15 years agoI played a reasonable amount through the original (not sure of game time) and took a break and found it impossible to get back into without restarting so didn't touch it again (started on what seemed a hard battle). I will probably end up getting the remake but the Strange Journey remake and Alliance Alive come first in my priorities. -
Humperfunk 8,634 posts
Seen 2 hours ago
Registered 9 years ago@One_Vurfed_Gwrx Not heard of Alliance Alive, just googled and looks excellent! -
Downside of AA is I think it is digital only in Europe... Luckily in this case I have a US 3DS.
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