Following The UK General Politics Thread Page 1040

  • Dougs 13 Sep 2018 17:02:27 87,053 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    That's true but the only Labour governments that have been elected in the last forty years were centerist.

    That tells you something about what Britain wants from a government.
    Perhaps then, yes. Maybe not now - last GE saw a swing towards Labour. How much of that was anti-Brexit and how much was due to Corbyn's policies remains to be seen I think. FWIW, I quite like a lot of his domestic stuff (Brexit aside), but his foreign policy is all over the place
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 13 Sep 2018 17:11:14 8,055 posts
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    Corbyn and friends have done amazingly at getting people motivated and on their side but they've been generally bad at parliamentary opposition.

    Or that would be the case until recently.

    I think they've probably hit the ceiling of where left-populist tub-thumping will get them but with the Tories imploding they're starting to win in the Commons. If only in PMQs.

    They're yet to get any symbolic defeats of the government on big votes (and supporting the govt on Brexit has helped prop them up for the last couple of years). Now that the membership and events are forcing the leadership to rethink we might see them get a win soon.

    I think that's the most astonishing thing, May has lost very very few votes or reversed many policies due to opposition pressure. For all the noise Labour haven't hurt the government.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 13 Sep 2018 17:19:18 8,055 posts
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    The opportunity is still huge though.

    I do think a lot of the potential of the anti-austerity domestic driven push of the first leadership election has been squandered for ideological infighting and refusal to grow up, compromise or seriously address any real problems within from across the party.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 13 Sep 2018 17:21:04 8,055 posts
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    That said if they're going to help bring down the government they need it to be May not Johnson leading the Tories into the election or they'll lose and that could finally split the party
  • H1ggyLTD 14 Sep 2018 00:06:52 10,628 posts
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    Privatising the fire service is it.

    Better than the alternative.
  • X201 14 Sep 2018 09:16:42 18,657 posts
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    I'm puzzled why any party wants to win the next election. They'll get hammered for any minor issue that arises from Brexit and not get any credit for any positives.
  • challenge_hanukkah 14 Sep 2018 09:22:08 8,362 posts
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    The beer is cheap in the house of commons.
  • GoatApocalypse 14 Sep 2018 10:07:47 4,605 posts
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    X201 wrote:
    I'm puzzled why any party wants to win the next election. They'll get hammered for any minor issue that arises from Brexit and not get any credit for any positives.
    Either way, it presents an opportunity to transform the state.
  • nickthegun 14 Sep 2018 10:42:27 75,533 posts
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    I'm hoping Brexit will become the Tories 2008 global finance crash (the difference being the Tories will deserve it).

    If Labour get in, they can blame everything on the Tories for a generation.
  • RichDC 14 Sep 2018 10:47:09 7,945 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    I'm hoping Brexit will become the Tories 2008 global finance crash (the difference being the Tories will deserve it).

    If Labour get in, they can blame everything on the Tories for a generation.
    The problem with that is, that unless Labour's stance changes, the Tories would always be able to counter with 'well you supported it too'.
  • fontgeeksogood 14 Sep 2018 10:47:11 3,171 posts
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    The problem is wholly down to the referendum. It will take 52% of your population to be sensible enough to accept they done fucked up and didn't know what they were voting for.

    From what I've seen, that's quite a rare commodity
  • nickthegun 14 Sep 2018 10:52:17 75,533 posts
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    RichDC wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    I'm hoping Brexit will become the Tories 2008 global finance crash (the difference being the Tories will deserve it).

    If Labour get in, they can blame everything on the Tories for a generation.
    The problem with that is, that unless Labour's stance changes, the Tories would always be able to counter with 'well you supported it too'.
    True but I suppose that, while they were the worst kind of quisling enablers, they didn't invoke the referendum and won't really be involved in the specifics of the withdrawal.

    But, yes, personally I find their complicity absolutely unforgivable.
  • Dougs 14 Sep 2018 10:54:20 87,053 posts
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    +1
  • mothercruncher 14 Sep 2018 11:07:27 15,374 posts
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    Indeed, Brexiter will be disastrous over a long period and in so many ways and Labour were fucking enablers.
  • Vortex808 14 Sep 2018 11:13:54 12,755 posts
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    fontgeeksogood wrote:
    The problem is wholly down to the referendum. It will take 52% of your population to be sensible enough to accept they done fucked up and didn't know what they were voting for.

    From what I've seen, that's quite a rare commodity
    I'd agree having watched Question Time last night. I had to switch it off, since I was getting close to kicking the tv in.

    Fucking brexiteers and their desire to plough on regardless. And the statement, that that's what we voted for, despite it only being 51.whatever % who voted to leave.

    Gah.
  • disusedgenius 14 Sep 2018 11:35:24 9,361 posts
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    mothercruncher wrote:
    Indeed, Brexiter will be disastrous over a long period and in so many ways and Labour were fucking enablers.
    No no, I don't you understand, the real fight starts... now?
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Sep 2018 11:44:19 8,055 posts
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    mothercruncher wrote:
    Indeed, Brexiter will be disastrous over a long period and in so many ways and Labour were fucking enablers.
    They might be softening now but they're certainly as culpable as the coalition era Labour opposition was for austerity (perhaps more so since so many near the top actively voted and campaigned for it for years)
  • GoatApocalypse 14 Sep 2018 13:30:55 4,605 posts
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    Again, worth remembering that Labour alone could not have done anything to halt Brexit. Even it came down to crunch votes, the likes of Field, Hoey and fucking Woke Soubz studded with the Government, while the Lib Dems had the day off to promote homophobia.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Sep 2018 13:34:48 12,646 posts
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    fontgeeksogood wrote:
    The problem is wholly down to the referendum. It will take 52% of your population to be sensible enough to accept they done fucked up and didn't know what they were voting for.

    From what I've seen, that's quite a rare commodity
    But if the second referendum was on the Brexit deal and included a 'no Brexit' option, the Leavers would be split between varying degrees of hard/soft, and the Remainers would all vote to remain. So Remain would win.
  • fontgeeksogood 14 Sep 2018 13:40:40 3,171 posts
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    Yeah, I see absolutely no problems with that and the people who still think they 'won' first time around will happily concede that their Brexit didn't mean Brexit
  • Graxlar_v3 14 Sep 2018 13:41:59 4,432 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    fontgeeksogood wrote:
    The problem is wholly down to the referendum. It will take 52% of your population to be sensible enough to accept they done fucked up and didn't know what they were voting for.

    From what I've seen, that's quite a rare commodity
    But if the second referendum was on the Brexit deal and included a 'no Brexit' option, the Leavers would be split between varying degrees of hard/soft, and the Remainers would all vote to remain. So Remain would win.
    \o/ i would take that in a heartbeat
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Sep 2018 14:02:12 8,055 posts
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    GoatApocalypse wrote:
    Again, worth remembering that Labour alone could not have done anything to halt Brexit. Even it came down to crunch votes, the likes of Field, Hoey and fucking Woke Soubz studded with the Government, while the Lib Dems had the day off to promote homophobia.
    While true they still did it

    Same as I'm sure plenty will argue that labours abstentions were pro-austerity
  • KnuttinAtoll 14 Sep 2018 14:12:27 6,129 posts
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    I find this whole over-reliance on referendums quite laughable really.

    What's the point of having elected politicians at all if they leave all the important decisions up to the common folk.

    Although with the current selection of politicians (across the political spectrum) I can't really blame you guys either for doing it.
  • disusedgenius 14 Sep 2018 14:37:32 9,361 posts
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    GoatApocalypse wrote:
    Again, worth remembering that Labour alone could not have done anything to halt Brexit. Even it came down to crunch votes, the likes of Field, Hoey and fucking Woke Soubz studded with the Government, while the Lib Dems had the day off to promote homophobia.
    They were happy enough to go along with it for the Article 50 vote, of course.
  • GoatApocalypse 14 Sep 2018 14:46:15 4,605 posts
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    I think it's political suicide to have opposed Article 50, whereas it's good politics to oppose austerity.

    Ultimately, it depends on the broader strategy. Starmer has been clear that it's the terms of Brexit that matter, and who has a final day on agreeing to them.

    That's the most effective opposition tactic; it remains to be seen whether that's the game they're playing.

    Edited by GoatApocalypse at 17:35:07 14-09-2018
  • disusedgenius 14 Sep 2018 14:52:52 9,361 posts
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    It's a strategy for sure. It just doesn't seem to be paying off.

    Saying that, as a Lib Dem I can't really get too worked up about others trying to balance collaboration with resistance and fucking up slightly.

    Edited by disusedgenius at 14:53:25 14-09-2018
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Sep 2018 16:53:34 8,055 posts
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    I think I'd have more faith in what does appear to be the strategy if there wasn't a historically pro-leave eurosceptic leadership directing party strategy.

    Especially when you had one message from Starmer and another from the leader's office and MPs more closely linked to them.

    Plus they did vote with the government to give ascent to the government on this. They put up a few token amendments but there were no conditions attached when the progression of the bills passed.

    I do understand the strategy that Goat suggests but it remains true that whatever the reason they've supported something damaging and some of them are very willing participants in that.
  • GoatApocalypse 14 Sep 2018 17:29:07 4,605 posts
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    Good thread on this from Sunny Hundal: https://twitter.com/sunny_hundal/status/1040616190127812608?s=19
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Sep 2018 17:50:58 8,055 posts
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    That is the same argument for why they supported austerity and that was total shit for the country too.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Sep 2018 17:52:19 8,055 posts
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    "these bad things are good if we do them" seems a common theme on the red left and its an awful shame when other parts of the left and individuals who hold left wing views aspire to more - and this lot sold themselves as being that more.
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