| @Leolian'sBro - you're assuming that John Snow is actually dead. I'm not convinced of that just yet, despite how the last book ended. |
A Thread of Ice and Fire • Page 5
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Tricky 5,088 posts
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Registered 20 years ago -
jakuande 191 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 15 years ago'this is the story of westeros'
I agree, I think George is now caught between writing a history of his imaginary world and telling us an interesting story.
You can see where he went off track by looking at the Point of View characters for each book. They start off tightly focussed with 6 PoV characters from the Stark family, Tyrion to give us an idea what the enemy is up to and Danny to make the world seem bigger than just Westeros:
Book 1 : Eddard, Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Dany.
Then we lose one Stark PoV but gain 2 new characters so we can see more of what's going on in the world, retaining the focus on the Starks with 5 out of 9 PoVs :
Book 2 : Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Davos, Theon.
Book 3 drops one of the extra PoVs from book 2 but adds two new ones. However these are both characters we are already familiar with so the reader can quickly get up to speed. Its also pretty clear that the focus remains on the Starks with 5 out of 10 PoVs :
Book 3 : Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Davos, Jaime, Sam.
Then book 4 drops the ball, suddenly we lose 5 of the main PoVs we have had from book 1 (yes some come back later but we have a book to get through first!) We then get saddled with a massive 8 new PoVs, many of whom we have hardly if ever met before. We only have 2 Starks, one of whom is away doing their own thing abroad and the other who is in hiding, pretending to be someone else. Needless to say the Stark family saga is pretty much dead in the water for the duration of this book which leaves the reader pretty much lost.
Book 4 : Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Sam, Cersei, Brienne, a bunch of other people who add nothing to the story. -
Tricky 5,088 posts
Seen 3 days ago
Registered 20 years agoLeoliansBro wrote:
Oh that's unfair - I think he knows. It's been pretty clearly signposted a few times that rather than Stannis being Azor Ahai reborn, it's actually Jon who is yet to be reborn and become Azor Ahai. That's one theory anyway.
I am, indeed, assuming that. I don't think GRRM knows whether that's true either at this point. -
Nanocrystal 2,575 posts
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Registered 12 years agoYeah that prophecy being (maybe) fulfilled, along with the one about Dany (Sun rising in the west, etc.) were two things that sailed completely over my head when I read ADwD. -
nickthegun 87,711 posts
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Registered 16 years agoI dont know about reborn, but I did get the impression that Jon Snow would ultimately be the aragorn. -
Tricky 5,088 posts
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Registered 20 years agoLeoliansBro wrote:
Can't remember specific references off the top of my head as it's been a few months since I read the book, but look at Melisandre's increased interest in Jon along with various hints that Stannis isn't quite what he's being bigged up to be. It's worth a re-read if you missed that stuff as I honestly think that's where he's going with it. Jon is too important a character with too much character arc left to explore for him to be truly dead. Maybe that's me being biased because he's my favourite character alongside Tyrion, but if you check the various message boards where people discuss the themes of the books you'll find a lot of people who are of the same opinion.
Tricky wrote:
Have to say, this passed me by as well. Any elaboration?
LeoliansBro wrote:
Oh that's unfair - I think he knows. It's been pretty clearly signposted a few times that rather than Stannis being Azor Ahai reborn, it's actually Jon who is yet to be reborn and become Azor Ahai. That's one theory anyway.
I am, indeed, assuming that. I don't think GRRM knows whether that's true either at this point. -
Nanocrystal 2,575 posts
Seen 6 hours ago
Registered 12 years agoIt's a bit more specific than that with the prophecy too. I tried googling to find the exact details, but had no luck. For example the Azor Ahai prophecy mentions stuff about smoke and salt, and stars above, and at the moment Jon is stabbed there's a fire, the guy stabbing him is crying, and a guy with three stars as his sigil is being thrown about overhead by the giant.
Then with the prophecy about Dany, the sun rising in the west and setting in the east is about the prince from Dorne (sigil is a sun) who travelled to meet her from the west and was killed by the dragon in the east.
Obviously a lot of ambiguity in these scenes so nothing is certain, could just be GRRM playing with his audience. -
Bumped for those than ironically can't read. -
What happens in the TV series when people can't read? -
mcmonkeyplc wrote:
GRRM writes the TV show first.
What happens in the TV series when people can't read? -
xandoodle 475 posts
Seen 3 days ago
Registered 19 years agojakuande wrote:
Books 4/5 are essentially one book split geographically. So the whole 'dropping the ball' suddenly looks a bit wafer thin... Obviously the Stark family saga looks dead in the water - none of them are in Kings Landing.
'this is the story of westeros'
I agree, I think George is now caught between writing a history of his imaginary world and telling us an interesting story.
...
Then book 4 drops the ball, suddenly we lose 5 of the main PoVs we have had from book 1 (yes some come back later but we have a book to get through first!) We then get saddled with a massive 8 new PoVs, many of whom we have hardly if ever met before. We only have 2 Starks, one of whom is away doing their own thing abroad and the other who is in hiding, pretending to be someone else. Needless to say the Stark family saga is pretty much dead in the water for the duration of this book which leaves the reader pretty much lost.
Book 4 : Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Sam, Cersei, Brienne, a bunch of other people who add nothing to the story. -
So Robbs wife appears to have changed to a Volantese? I wonder if they're going to keep him alive longer than in the books. Although the red wedding would make one fuckton of a season finale...for next season
Spoilers for anyone that hasn't read Storm of swords.
Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 09:59:13 24-04-2012 -
Dougs 100,414 posts
Seen 20 hours ago
Registered 18 years agoWas a bit puzzled by that. Doesn't make any sense in terms of the politics of The Red Wedding. Which was all a set up by Tywin with the Freys. Not sure the response would have been as severe had it been an unknown family he married into, as opposed to the Westerlings. Weird.
Edited by Dougs at 10:03:08 24-04-2012 -
Dougs wrote:
Yeah but the family the girl was part of wasn't exactly big anyway. I think it's just as easy to piss off the freys by marrying a random...even more so maybe.
Was a bit puzzled by that. Doesn't make any sense in terms of the politics of The Red Wedding. Which was all a set up by Tywin with the Freys. Not sure the response would have been as severe had it been an unknown family he married into, as opposed to the Westerlings. Weird. -
jakuande 191 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 15 years ago@xandoodle
You're quite right about books 4 and 5 being one book split in two. In fact the decision to do this is really the root of the problem. If GRRM had written one book with the extraneous viewpoints taken out then the story would have been vastly improved. He even had a plan of how to do this by jumping forward in time. -
Dougs 100,414 posts
Seen 20 hours ago
Registered 18 years agomcmonkeyplc wrote:
Well, they made quite a big thing about the family being one of the oldest and had more status than the Freys, if not the power. But I guess it doesn't really matter
Yeah but the family the girl was part of wasn't exactly big anyway. I think it's just as easy to piss off the freys by marrying a random...even more so maybe. -
xandoodle 475 posts
Seen 3 days ago
Registered 19 years ago@jakuande wrote:
Guess this is where you and me are different then, in hindsight I enjoyed book 4 and Kings Landing.
@xandoodle
You're quite right about books 4 and 5 being one book split in two. In fact the decision to do this is really the root of the problem. If GRRM had written one book with the extraneous viewpoints taken out then the story would have been vastly improved. He even had a plan of how to do this by jumping forward in time.
It was a slog, but after book 5 was worth it. -
Fuck that,80% of Feast for Crows and 60% of Dance with dragons was a total waste of time.
If he does that with Winds of Winter I will skull fuck him and never read anymore of his bullshit.
Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 10:37:13 24-04-2012 -
Dougs 100,414 posts
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Registered 18 years agoYou won't really, you'll bitch and moan about it here -
Dougs wrote:
He won't be able to write after I skull fuck him anyway, so it's moot point
You won't really, you'll bitch and moan about it here.gif)
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MrDigital 1,885 posts
Seen 6 years ago
Registered 11 years agoBeen watching the TV show and was reminded of Bronn. What's happened to him last we know? My mind is so blank when trying to remember it. -
Geesh wrote:
He was given some land and woman and cersei tried to have him killed but failed cause well cersei is a failure
Been watching the TV show and was reminded of Bronn. What's happened to him last we know? My mind is so blank when trying to remember it. -
Salaman 24,162 posts
Seen 6 days ago
Registered 17 years agomcmonkeyplc wrote:
Aaaah. Good call. I watched the HBO epside Monday night and when Robb was talking to that Volante woman I was thinking to myself I don't remember anything like this, what an odd addition.Seems to serve no purpose.
So Robbs wife appears to have changed to a Volantese? I wonder if they're going to keep him alive longer than in the books. Although the red wedding would make one fuckton of a season finale...for next season
Spoilers for anyone that hasn't read Storm of swords.
You're probably right but I think it doesn't matter in the end. What I took from the book was that the old Frey fellar was mightly pissed off because Robb broke his word and because he's got some inferiority complex and feels passed over all the time. Getting one of his married to Robb, the wolf, king of the north was a scoop for him. Then he was shunned and his pride was so damaged he was going to see revenge.
Who Robb settled on instead of the Frey girl seemed quite inconsequential. -
MrDigital 1,885 posts
Seen 6 years ago
Registered 11 years agomcmonkeyplc wrote:
Ah right. I wonder if he'll have absolutely no loyalty to Tyrion if Tyrion comes back to Westeros and is poor. I'd like to think there's a little bit of camaraderie there on top of the money
Geesh wrote:
He was given some land and woman and cersei tried to have him killed but failed cause well cersei is a failure
Been watching the TV show and was reminded of Bronn. What's happened to him last we know? My mind is so blank when trying to remember it.
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Fydria 562 posts
Seen 6 years ago
Registered 10 years agoFinally finished Dance with Dragons and can safely read within this thread now. Hello! -
Tricky wrote:
Salt and Smoke though, surely that's Dany? Born in a storm, reborn in a great big fire.
LeoliansBro wrote:
Oh that's unfair - I think he knows. It's been pretty clearly signposted a few times that rather than Stannis being Azor Ahai reborn, it's actually Jon who is yet to be reborn and become Azor Ahai. That's one theory anyway.
I am, indeed, assuming that. I don't think GRRM knows whether that's true either at this point.
It seems likely that the Red Lady will either heal Jon from the brink of death or bring him back to life after the Julius Caesar scene but that doesn't make him Azor Ahai - and that's even if the whole prophecy thing isn't bollocks anyway.
.gif)
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