Celebrity Paedogeddon (now feat. other celeb sex offences) Page 241

  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 09:50:08 15,733 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    That's a very pretty way of saying everyone is guilty unless found innocent.
    No. An accusation can come from a place of honesty, but the accused can still be innocent. It could be mistaken identity or just a misreading or events, or even a hallucination or something. There are many possibilities to explore.


    I'm of the opinion that there should be an investigation before someone is labelled a rapist or sex offender.

    We're completely agreed on this. That was never in debate. My issue again was with your suggestion that victims might be 'trying to make a name for themselves'.


    When there is video evidence of the crime I'm OK with skipping ahead to labelling people.
    To be honest even then I'm more inclined to go with your previous point that we should wait until they're proven guilty before destroying their name. Again, the issue really is believing the victims and empowering other victims to come forward.
  • Lukus 11 Jan 2019 09:59:06 21,932 posts
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    I'm genuinely trying to think, have there been any high profile cases where the accused is named, but then turns out to be innocent (at least in a court of law definition)? Doctor Fox is about the only one I can think of.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 10:00:30 15,733 posts
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    Lukus wrote:
    I'm genuinely trying to think, have there been any high profile cases where the accused is named, but then turns out to be innocent (at least in a court of law definition)? Doctor Fox is about the only one I can think of.
    Yeah plenty. Cliff Richard, Craig Charles. Even Woody Allen amazingly, although you wouldn't know it from this thread.

    A better question, is has any women ever 'made a name for herself' and had an incredible career off the back of falsely accusing a celebrity of rape.
  • Lukus 11 Jan 2019 10:03:32 21,932 posts
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    Yeah, I'm not sure how that's ever been a good argument against someone's guilt or potential guilt.

    That's obviously not to say there aren't false accusations flying around, but, you know.

    Edited by Lukus at 10:05:02 11-01-2019
  • Lukus 11 Jan 2019 10:07:16 21,932 posts
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    Oh and the funny (awful) thing is, in my mind, Cliff is totally guilty, in a weird, abstract kind of way. I know he's not, but, COME ON...
  • Load_2.0 11 Jan 2019 10:11:03 29,324 posts
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    You cant have it both ways.

    If you want to believe the accuser you have to assume the other party is guilty.

    That is when the damage is done. To the family, workplace, friends.

    Even if the person is found innocent the stigma remains. If you had a colleague who had been found not guilty of rape would you want to be associated with them?
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 11 Jan 2019 10:14:49 19,735 posts
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    There are plenty of people out there who will look at the me too movement as a way of making money. People are cunts, both men and woman.
  • Load_2.0 11 Jan 2019 10:17:03 29,324 posts
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    Not sure it was me that was making a case for seeking fame off the back of accusations.

    I have suggested that accusations can be used as a weapon or to gain a benefit.

    Not sure why that has stuck with you as particularly outrageous.
  • RichDC 11 Jan 2019 11:14:16 8,302 posts
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    I guess this is the reason we let courts decide these things and not randoms on the internet.
  • mrpon 11 Jan 2019 11:18:50 35,211 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    When you film yourself raping people I feel more confident that it's probably not the case here.
    Top tip. When being raped make sure you’re being filmed so people can feel more confident you’re not just trying to make a name for yourself.
    Another top tip. When being raped make sure it's not your Dad.

    https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/11/man-raped-drunk-daughter-wedding-night-thought-new-wife-8332782/
  • Frogofdoom 11 Jan 2019 11:22:09 13,223 posts
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    Not sure rape victims get much choice over their assailants.

    Edited by Frogofdoom at 11:22:29 11-01-2019
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 12:19:47 15,733 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Not sure it was me that was making a case for seeking fame off the back of accusations.

    I have suggested that accusations can be used as a weapon or to gain a benefit.

    Not sure why that has stuck with you as particularly outrageous.
    The phrase 'make a name for themselves' is the one that really stuck with me. In addition there's been more than one occasion where a metoo type conversation point has led you to make, as you say, suggestions that accusations can be made to gain benefit.

    What we've seen in the last year or so is the unravelling of a serious societal issue of men imposing their power over women, with rape, sexual abuse and murder being the most extreme examples of this. One of the reasons this has happened on such a huge scale, for such a long time, is the fear that women have of these accusations being turned on them, which invariably happens. Look at the incredible amount of smear Christine Blasey Ford had to suffer over her Kavanaugh accusations.

    While I understand (and again completely agree) that not all accusations should immediately mean an assumption of guilt on the accused, I think it's even more important in the bigger picture to give total benefit of doubt to the accusers (and as I explained above, these can both happen). The reason this is more important, is because of the issue of women being raped, abused and murdered is far far FAR bigger than that of women falsely accusing men of these crimes. Furthermore, in the face of the metoo and timesup movements, to turn around and say 'yeah but whatabout the women that make this stuff up for personal benefit' is the height of male privilege.

    And I realise I'm being a bit dicky bringing this up somewhat randomly, but again, you posted this particular example and it felt like an opportunity to make a point. Because generally I think you're awesome and I hate that that one conversation has stayed with me, so maybe you might now see what I meant.
  • Graxlar_v3 11 Jan 2019 12:45:31 6,725 posts
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    RichDC wrote:
    I guess this is the reason we let courts decide these things and not randoms on the internet.
    Pretty sure in the uk at least it is decided by random who may frequent the internet
  • Graxlar_v3 11 Jan 2019 12:45:32 6,725 posts
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    RichDC wrote:
    I guess this is the reason we let courts decide these things and not randoms on the internet.
    Pretty sure in the uk at least it is decided by randos who may frequent the internet

    Edited by Graxlar_v3 at 12:47:45 11-01-2019
  • RichDC 11 Jan 2019 12:50:01 8,302 posts
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    A fair point.
  • Load_2.0 11 Jan 2019 12:53:42 29,324 posts
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    Oh no drama. We're still sweet. Xxx

    I just can't buy into the idea that every one that comes forward must be believed automatically. For me that means the accused is guilty. In an age of twitter and social media accusations are devastating. Even if you are found innocent you are labelled forever.

    It's also got to viewed as a weapon. How many thousands of Americans believe the Clinton's are paedos?
  • Load_2.0 11 Jan 2019 12:54:40 29,324 posts
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    I'm all for making a better safer world for everyone. I dont think the current approach of automatic guilt is the right course.
  • RichDC 11 Jan 2019 13:01:54 8,302 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I just can't buy into the idea that every one that comes forward must be believed automatically.
    100% correct. Unfortunately I can't remember the full reasoning but there is a whole chapter in The Secret Barrister book about why this is very important and the issues that were created when the police adopted a policy of believing every complainant without question.

    Essentially though, as far as the justice system is concerned the rights of the accused to a fair trial trump everything else.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 13:03:26 15,733 posts
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    Have actual victims of the Clintons come forward? I think there's a very important difference between smear and slander, and victims coming forward. I again don't think the latter necessarily is (and certainly shouldn't be) wrapped up in a presumption of guilt on the accused. There is definitely a problem with the press naming people accused and that whole system needs looking at. People absolutely should be innocent until proven guilty.

    However, equally fundamental is the principle that anyone that comes forward as a victim of a crime, particularly one as serious as rape, should be believed as a starting point.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 13:05:41 15,733 posts
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    RichDC wrote:
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I just can't buy into the idea that every one that comes forward must be believed automatically.
    100% correct. Unfortunately I can't remember the full reasoning but there is a whole chapter in The Secret Barrister book about why this is very important and the issues that were created when the police adopted a policy of believing every complainant without question.

    Essentially though, as far as the justice system is concerned the rights of the accused to a fair trial trump everything else.
    I'm not a lawyer so I'm sure there's nuances to this that I don't understand. Perhaps my point shouldn't be as broad as 'everyone should be believed'.

    I still strongly believe in the metoo era, we really seriously need to be better at how we treat women who are brave enough to say they've been sexual victims.
  • nickthegun 11 Jan 2019 13:09:04 77,813 posts
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    I think it's right to treat sexual assault with a belief first approach but that should also be tempered with anonymity for the accused until it at least gets to trial.

    I think on a purely risk based approach (ugh) the benefits of belief first far, far outweigh the unfortunate instances where the system is abused.

    Or put another way....



    Edited by nickthegun at 13:26:32 11-01-2019
  • RichDC 11 Jan 2019 13:22:10 8,302 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I still strongly believe in the metoo era, we really seriously need to be better at how we treat women who are brave enough to say they've been sexual victims.
    I completely agree. But it is important to remember that the way we recognise rights and wrongs on a societal level are very different to convicting an individual person of a criminal offence.

    Remembering that all convictions are made on a standard of evidence that is beyond all reasonable doubt, a good investigation will show that this standard is met (or not met) and whether the complainant is believed has absolutely no bearing on the facts.

    Obviously this relies on a good investigation actually taking place, which is where things have fallen down.

    Edited by RichDC at 13:23:17 11-01-2019
  • JamboWayOh 11 Jan 2019 13:27:25 13,158 posts
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    Yeah I think there's been issues with how sexual assault cases have been investigated, also there's far too much of cases where both parties identities in a case have been revealed resulting in a great deal of kangaroo court bullshit primarily from the Internet. I'm sure many of us here have been guilty of it.
  • Load_2.0 11 Jan 2019 13:33:54 29,324 posts
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    We live in a world where consent is fluid and where you can go online announce to the world famous person X is rapist/sex offender.

    I think there has to be a more cautious approach for the benefit of all parties involved.
  • Lukus 11 Jan 2019 14:35:28 21,932 posts
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    Anonymity for both sides until it goes to trial (which would imply there were sufficient grounds/circumstances/evidence to create a case for potential prosecution) is the obvious solution. But pretty much impossible in the world we live in now.
  • fontgeeksogood 11 Jan 2019 15:38:19 6,052 posts
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    There's very good reasons why anonymity isn't a good blanket thing.

    It's incredibly difficult to get it right. Would be really terrific if people just stopped raping
  • Load_2.0 11 Jan 2019 16:37:57 29,324 posts
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    Everyone?
  • RyanDS 11 Jan 2019 16:44:20 12,745 posts
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    Lukus wrote:
    Anonymity for both sides until it goes to trial (which would imply there were sufficient grounds/circumstances/evidence to create a case for potential prosecution) is the obvious solution. But pretty much impossible in the world we live in now.
    With anonymity metoo would never have happened. Neither would the saville stuff have come out. It is knowing you are not alone that can give confidence to victims to come forward.

    But also Craig Charles etc. Basically it is shit either way.
  • Lukus 11 Jan 2019 16:54:53 21,932 posts
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    That's why I said until trial. Which again isn't ideal as you're potentially missing out on evidence and testimony from other victims that could form part of that trial.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 17:11:09 15,733 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    We live in a world where consent is fluid
    I don't think I understand what this means.
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