Rab Florence / Lost Humanity Page 17

  • Deleted user 29 October 2012 21:07:18
  • mal 29 Oct 2012 21:44:27 29,326 posts
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    I'll have to read that RPG codex article later. I started it assuming there would be a host of comments after it, but it turns out the article goes all the way down my scrollbar. Blimey!

    Still, at least I now know what that Defiance thing that hashtag was meant to advertise is. Good work, RPGcodex ;)

    Re libel in the UK, I thought the accepted concern was that if you opponent can afford to hire better lawyers than you for a long time, they can drag the case out for years, all the while you're paying your inferior lawyers more than you would want to for a few months, let along a few years. You don't get the payout until the end, and even cut-and-dried cases can be spun out by lawyers with a good understanding of the system.

    Edit: How know brown know

    Edited by mal at 21:45:21 29-10-2012
  • dufftownallan 29 Oct 2012 22:13:23 4,723 posts
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    morriss wrote:
    So EG couldn't afford better lawyers than Lauren W? I'm sure they could, however, I doubt Lauren would just flick through the Yellow Pages...

    Edited by dufftownallan at 22:14:25 29-10-2012
  • morriss 29 Oct 2012 22:38:33 71,290 posts
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    Mal: That's my point: I'm sure she would be fronted by PR. Rob hinted as much.
  • mal 30 Oct 2012 00:16:44 29,326 posts
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    Indeed, I just thought it worth reiterating, although I am also going off my interpretation of what I've seen Rab say. Given she works for a PR rag, the involvement of PR can't be too far away.
  • spamdangled 30 Oct 2012 00:48:53 31,584 posts
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    I think the main problem is that the burden of proof lies on the defendant rather than the claimant, so there is a sort of assumed guilty-until-proven-innocent thing going on.

    And it's definitely worth reading the RPGCodx article. It manages to bring together a whole variety of different writings on the whole subject, whilst also doing a bit more digging on certain people involved in this case and then analysing the actual media coverage - or lack thereof (including Tom Bramwell, who doesn't come out of it brilliantly).

    Edited by darkmorgado at 00:51:06 30-10-2012

    Edited by darkmorgado at 00:54:03 30-10-2012
  • Deleted user 30 October 2012 03:12:40
    w00t wrote:
    I thought UK libel law placed all the court costs on the loser?

    Anyways, it seems that RPG Codex give a shit about this.
    I read that earlier

    ‘Llama-drama’ was the verdict of professional hippo Jim Sterling.
  • Tonka 30 Oct 2012 07:35:18 27,692 posts
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    @meme Don't you have any "Read it later" kind of account? www.getpocket.com or www.readability.com are both free and very nice.
  • cowell 30 Oct 2012 07:40:09 1,481 posts
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    "@robertflorence: What we need to do is encourage the creation of small, independent sites that have zero PR influence upon them. And help sustain them."

    An admirable sentiment but a pipe dream if you ask me. I love small hobbyist sites but for them to be sustainable they need to operate in a way that is going to attract traffic. Traffic needs new, up to date content and that needs full timers on salaries paid for by ad revenue. Advertisers want traffic and so the cycle continues.

    "@robertflorence: Readers need to understand that their rabid demand for EXCLUSIVE FIRST LOOKS!!! make it easy for PRs to control the content they read."

    Again admirable sentiment, but how many people are prepared to wait weeks for a truly independent review after launch? Not many I'd guess.

    The publishing cycle is all geared to driving the day one on sales, marketing and PR. However unless consumers change their deeply ingrained desire for the shiny new thing at launch this simply isn't going to change.

    Edited by cowell at 07:42:02 30-10-2012
  • King_Edward 30 Oct 2012 08:00:50 11,470 posts
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    Thing is. The only reason Publishers holding back content works, is because reviewers allow it to work. If IGN, EG, CVG, EDGE and all the other big guys told them to bugger off with their exclusive content they'd still send out early review copies anyway. They need those games reviewing.
  • cowell 30 Oct 2012 08:07:06 1,481 posts
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    Agreed but the audience all sits there with baited breath waiting for that exclusive. That means traffic which means revenue
  • morriss 30 Oct 2012 08:08:53 71,290 posts
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    I remember people I know within the industry drinking virtual champagne because they were invited to California with only one other UK publication to get a full-apid-for-and-therefore-100%-controlled first look at a massively-hyped-by-the-gamesites-themselves game.

    Now, that trip would have generated enormous traffic. Really boosted the profile of the site and basically earned some good cash that could be re-invested etc.

    Should this site have said "no?" If they did a) they would never be asked again and b) someone else would say yes.

    The whole industry needs to say no, but when you have certain sub-sections of the games media who are only in for the "review copy." PR will always go them.

    If you want to be successful and make a living from it, what do you do?
  • Deleted user 30 October 2012 08:15:25
    My time and efforts with AATG have shown me how difficult it is to run a small independent PR-free website.
  • Tonka 30 Oct 2012 08:30:42 27,692 posts
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    @HairyArse The piece you did about sensationalistic headlines and traffic was brilliant. It highlights what I mean when I say it's not PR that is the problem but gamers.

    In the magazine/newspaper world there's a lot of uncertainty about the future. I always think they should look at how EG and IGN etc are doing it. But the thing is... it's not really high quality writing for the most part.

    In Sweden there's a monthly that came out with a focus on long reads. Everyone said it was dead on delivery but now, three years later, it is still going strong.

    Would that work for games? Is there even that much to write about?

    I think IGN are doing the right thing by branching out to other "30-something male" topics. Too bad they're not that good for the most part.

    Sweden again and www.feber.se. Basically a vg247 but one that covers all the stuff 30+M's are into. The writing is all but non-existant but they've built a reader base through sheer persistence. The ads are from all the places morriss have mentioned PLUS automobile.

    There is a demand for a geek site that goes beyond regurgitating pressreleases. And by branching out you won't end up in the lap of one industries PR.

    I doubt you could become gamesPR independent if you only write about games.
  • repairmanjack 30 Oct 2012 08:50:16 6,133 posts
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    HairyArse wrote:
    My time and efforts with AATG have shown me how difficult it is to run a small independent PR-free website.
    Good job you have some fantastic writers!
  • Deleted user 30 October 2012 08:57:48
    I've got the feeling that EG can't say anything. Maybe I'm putting two and two together and making five, but there seems to be pretty-much-universal agreement that a libel claim wouldn't have had legs, and EG is usually quite good at letting readers know what's going on (and why), so there must be something more than the legal shenanigans happening here. My guess is that MCV somehow have a way to use their position to threaten EG's advertising.
  • X201 30 Oct 2012 09:23:12 18,461 posts
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    jablonski wrote:
    matrim83 wrote:
    Have EG said that there is some sort of an article coming up for this whole debacle?

    Seems pretty unusual of them to just ignore the whole thing.
    The only thing he's said.

    Not the only thing. See the Penny Arcade story mentioned a page or two back.
  • repairmanjack 30 Oct 2012 10:23:42 6,133 posts
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    jablonski wrote:
    It does rather shake your confidence in EG.

    But they are a big company now with a lot of jobs to protect, so welcome to the harsh realities of business.

    Bramwell has also grown up into the business - learning as he goes, I expect he's taking no chances. Who can blame him.
    A big company would dig in its heels. Particularly when they're on firm legal ground... and in the fucking right. This smacks of a chump move. But, hey, silence can be made to mean anything.
  • Deleted user 30 October 2012 11:06:51
    Thanks for your kind words Tonka.

    I just went back and read said article from 2009. Needed a bit of an edit and someone else to proof it for me, but the points still stand today, which I'm quite pleased with.

    All of which makes me proud to be sorta 'indie', but then I'm not going to kid anyone by suggesting that I'd not bite the arm off any PR-rep that offered to send me on an all-expenses paid trip to see game X. In fact, if I recall correctly, when I went to see the first Assassin's Creed game on behalf of this very community, I'm sure I opened my preview by outlining how as a no-nonsense Yorkshireman I was still going to tell it like it is.

    Without making this too naval-gazing and all me-me-me, the fact still remains that for as independent as AATG is, myself and others have slaved away at it for the best part of 5 years for what? A few thousand unique visitors a month and to be dismissed as the place where people that fell-out-of-love with EG go to die.

    And while at the time of its inception there was lots of interest from people who wanted a site that represented 'real gamers' (*spit), after an initial spurt, it soon settled down to only the dedicated few contributing. And I have to admit that of late it's been somewhat neglected by me personally as I'm lacking in time/motivation/energy trying to keep up with the shillers and the baiters.

    Edited by HairyArse at 11:07:46 30-10-2012

    Edited by HairyArse at 11:08:52 30-10-2012
  • LockeTribal 30 Oct 2012 11:57:34 4,678 posts
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    Front page people. Tom Bramwell's response.
  • psychokitten Moderator 30 Oct 2012 11:58:35 7,795 posts
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    Bramwell speaks. Agree totally with waiting and responding with a clear level head, instead of rushing to reply like people were crying for.

  • spamdangled 30 Oct 2012 12:00:05 31,584 posts
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    Lauren Wainwright threatened us with legal action and made it clear she would not back down
  • Feanor 30 Oct 2012 12:05:28 14,272 posts
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    I like to know the names of the corrupt scum who were screaming at Bramwell over the article.
  • jellyhead 30 Oct 2012 12:12:07 24,346 posts
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    @darkmorgado People actually suspect it was Intent Media who did the leaning not Lauren herself. It's one of the points Rab raised. Why was Lauren allowed to throw herself under a bus by deleting posts, tweets etc her so called friends? Surely they would have advised her otherwise if they were her friends?
  • Popzeus 30 Oct 2012 12:12:12 8,425 posts
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    Good blog, that. Allayed many concerns for me.

    Will be interesting to see if the implied change in editorial policy will actually be workable, mind.
  • Metalfish 30 Oct 2012 12:17:00 9,191 posts
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    Feanor wrote:
    I like to know the names of the corrupt scum who were screaming at Bramwell over the article.
    Yep, I'd like to know who has proved themselves to be less than worthless as a source of consumer advice so that I can avoid any of my time/money going anywhere near them.
  • Deleted user 30 October 2012 12:21:38
    Wonder if I'll get my most negative post on that eg post ever. -6 in 5 minutes.
  • jellyhead 30 Oct 2012 12:21:47 24,346 posts
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    Just read the front page, good response Tom. You've obviously exposed something that others in the industry would rather not see especially about themselves and their supposed integrity and free-will.

    It's been quite an eye opener reading responses from some industry personalities on podcasts and forums. It's become quite apparent who i need to continue to avoid paying any attention to and why i was right to do so in the first place.

    EG isn't on that list :)
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