Building A Gaming PC - Parts Advice Needed Page 236

  • uiruki 17 Mar 2021 09:52:36 5,767 posts
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    edit: double post.

    Edited by uiruki at 09:53:55 17-03-2021
  • uiruki 17 Mar 2021 09:52:36 5,767 posts
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    It might work on Nioh 2 but the latest patch has apparently introduced a crashing bug so I'm not able to see it for more than about a second on my CX before it dumps me out to the desktop. Fine on my monitor though.
  • Gregolution 17 Mar 2021 10:11:26 11,063 posts
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    @captbirdseye but wouldn't the cross platform games have similar HDR implementations across the board? Why does it work so incredibly well with virtually no setup on ps5? usually have a 15 second wizard to run through at the start of the game to configure hdr, slide slider to make image almost invisible, repeat, repeat done.

    On PC there are 6 sliders, all seem to conflict. I've spent HOURS trying to make it remotely playable. I can't figure out if its the software or the screen. It's madness.
  • captbirdseye 17 Mar 2021 10:18:58 10,702 posts
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    @Gregolution It's pretty much universal across TV's these days. The PC market is still an emerging one for HDR so why would you plough resources into something that barely anyone will benefit from.
  • captbirdseye 17 Mar 2021 10:20:58 10,702 posts
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    Blame Microsoft hehe.
  • Blackmarsh63 17 Mar 2021 10:29:56 4,076 posts
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    Ubisoft seem to know what's what when it comes to HDR. Valhalla and Odyssey look rather nice on PC via a LG C9. I just turn HDR of in the windows settings and let the game do its thing.
  • Gregolution 17 Mar 2021 11:30:50 11,063 posts
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    captbirdseye wrote:
    @Gregolution It's pretty much universal across TV's these days. The PC market is still an emerging one for HDR so why would you plough resources into something that barely anyone will benefit from.
    because they're already doing it for the console version?

    This is what I don't understand, is it the game implementation that's bad HDR or the monitors we have?

    I'm going to have to go to town on analysis this weekend.... I've got a TV in the same room as computer and a long HDMI cable. I will get to the bottom of this damn it
  • muddyyfunster 17 Mar 2021 17:39:44 1,058 posts
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    Gregolution wrote:
    captbirdseye wrote:
    @Gregolution It's pretty much universal across TV's these days. The PC market is still an emerging one for HDR so why would you plough resources into something that barely anyone will benefit from.
    because they're already doing it for the console version?

    This is what I don't understand, is it the game implementation that's bad HDR or the monitors we have?

    I'm going to have to go to town on analysis this weekend.... I've got a TV in the same room as computer and a long HDMI cable. I will get to the bottom of this damn it
    Bit of both. Key factors:
    - Max brightness in nits of the tv/monitor as it's this that effectively gives the extra dynamic range over SDR.
    - Correctly mapping the content to use the available dynamic range.

    Pro-level HDR targets something like 4000nits (HDR10+ spec), a decent consumer display should hit at least 1000nits (base HDR10 spec). In practice, an awful lot of displays sold as HDR capable can't do this. It's a weakness of OLEDs and many PC monitors in particular. It's only really expensive full-array backlit LED TVs and to some extent QLED that can achieve suitable peak brightness across a decent chunk of the image (as opposed to smaller patches).

    Therefore, the source has to be calibrated to correctly map to the capabilities of the monitor. The in game calibration tools offered differs tremendously. You have games like Cyberpunk where the calibration tool is actively broken and misleading, and others like Last of Us 2 aren't broken but present you with unhelpful images.

    So to return to your question. Check out the actual dynamic range of your monitor options in terms of peak nits (ideally from an independent test as manufacturers lie) so you know which is actually best in theory. Then try and properly calibrate the game in question to use the true range you have. I'm not sure which games on PC offer the best in game tools so perhaps worth a google.
  • THFourteen 17 Mar 2021 17:46:22 54,352 posts
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    I guess the other thing is do you really want a monitor too bright right in front of your eyes?

    I use the eye saver mode on my G9 during the day otherwise i feel the burn
  • muddyyfunster 17 Mar 2021 17:57:04 1,058 posts
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    That's a fair point and if your monitor is really close you might want to turn it down.

    That being said HDR video content is actually designed to be watched in a dark room. This is so you get the wow factor from the full range. When mapped correctly, deliberately dark scenes should be truly dark (rather than lifted into the greys you get with SDR content) and bright scenes should be realistically bright. So daylight scenes should be akin to looking out the window and your eyes adjusting. The sun should be almost uncomfortably bright but not to the point of whiting out the surrounding image.

    The other technical point is that whilst you can certainly drop the overall monitor peak brightness for comfort you'll lose some colour intensity and the image will start to look a bit flatter. The same is true if you lift the bottom of the range up by reducing contrast.

    Certainly, with film and Dolby Vision technology there is definitely an 'as the creator intended' reference calibration to strive for. I'm not sure games are at that stage yet which is perhaps why it's so hit and miss. Like anything, there's compromises to be made and a question of what you prefer. It's not always practical to sit in the dark when playing games for one thing.

    Edited by muddyyfunster at 17:58:00 17-03-2021
  • captbirdseye 17 Mar 2021 19:11:44 10,702 posts
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    I think Microsoft have been paying attention to Greg's woes :p

    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/auto-hdr-preview-for-pc-available-today/
  • Rogueywon 17 Mar 2021 19:20:25 11,357 posts
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    captbirdseye wrote:
    I think Microsoft have been paying attention to Greg's woes :p

    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/auto-hdr-preview-for-pc-available-today/
    I'll bet you this just turns into an exercise in finding new ways to break Windows HDR.
  • Gregolution 17 Mar 2021 20:29:59 11,063 posts
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    muddyyfunster wrote:
    Gregolution wrote:
    captbirdseye wrote:
    @Gregolution It's pretty much universal across TV's these days. The PC market is still an emerging one for HDR so why would you plough resources into something that barely anyone will benefit from.
    because they're already doing it for the console version?

    This is what I don't understand, is it the game implementation that's bad HDR or the monitors we have?

    I'm going to have to go to town on analysis this weekend.... I've got a TV in the same room as computer and a long HDMI cable. I will get to the bottom of this damn it


    Pro-level HDR targets something like 4000nits (HDR10+ spec), a decent consumer display should hit at least 1000nits (base HDR10 spec). In practice, an awful lot of displays sold as HDR capable can't do this. It's a weakness of OLEDs and many PC monitors in particular. It's only really expensive full-array backlit LED TVs and to some extent QLED that can achieve suitable peak brightness across a decent chunk of the image (as opposed to smaller patches).

    This is interesting. I thought OLEDs were the best at HDR content, but don't need to have such high levels of brightness because they're the only tech that can provide true black?

    Is that wrong?
  • Gregolution 17 Mar 2021 20:30:58 11,063 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    I guess the other thing is do you really want a monitor too bright right in front of your eyes?

    I use the eye saver mode on my G9 during the day otherwise i feel the burn
    yeah! After just a few days I've started using the same on my Dell.
  • Gregolution 17 Mar 2021 20:42:57 11,063 posts
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    captbirdseye wrote:
    I think Microsoft have been paying attention to Greg's woes :p

    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/auto-hdr-preview-for-pc-available-today/
    haha looks like all they're doing is a trigger to turn on hdr automatically for a game though, not improve the quality.
  • uiruki 17 Mar 2021 20:44:42 5,767 posts
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    I've found that calibration helps a lot, especially when you dial down the brightness to around 150 nits. Less blue light and less light in general.

    On HDR there's two ends - there's the high dynamic range, i.e. the biggest possible contrast from the lowest to the highest levels of brightness, but there's also the maximum possible brightness which OLED can't quite manage at the moment due to power/heat but some VA LCDs can do if they really push the backlight, albeit with much lower contrast, usually around 3000:1. A lot of gaming monitors are IPS and they max out at about 1000:1 contrast which again makes that dynamic range less appreciable but without the black smearing and viewing angle issues that VA has. They're fine if they want to make the whole screen bright but they do lose a lot of what makes HDR impressive.

    It's all a bit of a tradeoff at the moment: display outputs aren't really built for OLEDs and they don't have the absolute peak brightness which combined with image retention make it like a modern plasma set, IPS LCD has low contrast, is often slow to respond and has issues like IPS glow which make it less than ideal for HDR content, particularly in low light rooms, and VA LCD has poorer viewing angles and uneven response time which means that blacks can smear compared to other aspects of the image. MicroLED is the technology people are waiting for but that's progressing slowly.

    edit: And I think auto-HDR is a bit more than just changing the settings (which is what the PS5 does) - it tries to algorithmically expand a standard dynamic range image into a wider colour gamut, bringing bloomed out highs and otherwise crushed blacks into more clarity. I've heard good things but haven't tried it myself.

    Edited by uiruki at 20:46:50 17-03-2021
  • Gregolution 17 Mar 2021 21:17:17 11,063 posts
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    @uiruki good info as usual, cheers.

    To my eyes OLED look by far the best PQ available but I do know about the peak brightness not being as high. I just thought the pure blacks made up for it.

    I'll probably look at micro LED in a couple of years.

    Once I've recovered from this ridiculous spend. It all started with a single fricking video card.. then that didn't fit int the case... and you know the rest. New PSU arrived today and got a YoYo standing desk ordered this arvo. ffs ... all holiday money saved from covid gone in a flash.

    Edited by Gregolution at 21:17:55 17-03-2021
  • Fake_Blood 17 Mar 2021 21:25:18 10,882 posts
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    Iíve been amazed by some of the hdr content on YouTube. Hdr on the CX has been alright, for normal windows use I keep the hdr toggle off and oled light at 40%.
  • muddyyfunster 17 Mar 2021 21:25:57 1,058 posts
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    @Gregolution sort of wrong I'm afraid. They can doabsolute black (i.e. pixel is off) so have a theoretical infinite contrast ratio and are marginally better for dark details as a result. However they just can't go bright enough to give the same wow factor and colour intensity as LED. The best full array LED TVs can get pretty close to true black such that you'd only tell it wasn't if viewing in a pitch dark room with no bias lighting.

    I'm not up to speed on PC monitor tech as TV tech. Will defer to others as to which tech is best for HDR in that space. I would just say you can't expect too much HDR from any display unless it can hit (and sustain) >1000nits. I'm sure you can still get a nice image with less, it just won't have as much pop.
  • Gregolution 17 Mar 2021 21:36:59 11,063 posts
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    @muddyyfunster

    Interesting. I'm far from claiming to be an expert. I did read somewhere that you need so much more tech in FALD (at great cost) to get the blacks closer to OLEDs to create decent HDR and maybe assumed that meant it was overall worse but didnt take into account how much brighter LED can get.

    I have never been blown away by HDR on OLED but the PQ is so bloody good I just thought it was icing on the cake.
  • muddyyfunster 17 Mar 2021 21:47:10 1,058 posts
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    OLEDs are great. They have way better viewing angles as well which is important for a TV.

    FALD is expensive, but similar to OLED I think.

    I think people don't typically appreciate the impact of brightness on colour. I'm not taking about the TV setting, I mean the actual amount of light emitted. As an example imagine a Ferrari parked outside. Think about how much deeper a more intense it looks as more sunlight shines on it. It's because of the extra light reflected back. A true high dynamic range allows you to more accurately depict all those shades of red as sun intensity changes and go above SDR peak for a fuller deeper red. An SDR monitor/SDR content will quickly get to the point of 'no more red available'.

    In laymen's terms it'll just look more natural, real and convincing in more lighting conditions.

    Edited by muddyyfunster at 21:48:31 17-03-2021
  • uiruki 17 Mar 2021 22:21:45 5,767 posts
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    Carrying on the car analogy, the first time I really was convinced how good HDR could look was when I loaded up GT Sport on my LG CX and saw the bright reflections of the sun against a car in an evening race - it was so much brighter it really 'completed' the scene. You don't necessarily need that top brightness, it's the whole picture, and in small areas an OLED set can get very bright. I had a Samsung LCD TV with HDR previously, but it was only edge lit so it was patently obvious where it was boosting the light (and it did a bunch of extra stuff to the image which really irritated me and couldn't turn off).

    Even in a game like Nioh, a game which is quite murky in general, that extra colour space does help to bring the detail out in the image. On my monitor on PC it's often quite hard to make everything out as it king of blurs in to everything but on the OLED it's a much more precise, sharp looking image and you can make out black armour on a black background quite easily.
  • muddyyfunster 17 Mar 2021 22:50:27 1,058 posts
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    My wow moment was the mad Max opening to the grand tour on prime. The cars in the sun just looked 'real' in a way I didn't think possible. Content of the series was a bit disappointing but in HDR it was incredible.

    Gaming wise the flame lurker in the new demons souls is astonishing. You can feel the heat.
  • uiruki 17 Mar 2021 22:54:02 5,767 posts
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    Even if you go from SDR to HDR in the Nexus you can see the difference. It's just so much clearer. In terms of visibility Demon's Souls is just better to play in HDR.
  • sport 18 Mar 2021 09:04:36 16,796 posts
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    Any tips for picking up a couple of 6700xts today?
  • THFourteen 18 Mar 2021 09:12:21 54,352 posts
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    sport wrote:
    Any tips for picking up a couple of 6700xts today?
    a couple!??
  • Tomo 18 Mar 2021 09:26:36 19,180 posts
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    Gotta pay for his new floor to ceiling windows
  • captbirdseye 18 Mar 2021 09:52:11 10,702 posts
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    @sport Jacamo were selling 3080s yesterday so you could try the big boy store.
  • Gregolution 18 Mar 2021 10:56:29 11,063 posts
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    muddyyfunster wrote:
    OLEDs are great. They have way better viewing angles as well which is important for a TV.

    FALD is expensive, but similar to OLED I think.

    I think people don't typically appreciate the impact of brightness on colour. I'm not taking about the TV setting, I mean the actual amount of light emitted. As an example imagine a Ferrari parked outside. Think about how much deeper a more intense it looks as more sunlight shines on it. It's because of the extra light reflected back. A true high dynamic range allows you to more accurately depict all those shades of red as sun intensity changes and go above SDR peak for a fuller deeper red. An SDR monitor/SDR content will quickly get to the point of 'no more red available'.

    In laymen's terms it'll just look more natural, real and convincing in more lighting conditions.
    But the whole point of needing brightness does diminish when you have pure blacks, that's a fact. You need a lot less brightness to show detailed differences in pure black than you need on an LED which starts at grey.
  • Gregolution 18 Mar 2021 11:07:14 11,063 posts
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    muddyyfunster wrote:
    FALD is expensive, but similar to OLED I think.

    It's only similar in what's its putting loads of effort into and lots of tech - trying to get better blacks. OLED get this for free. FALD needs tonnes of local array dimming spots to mimic similar, but it's still not as good and costs an awful lot of money to accomplish.
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