The Scottish Fitba Thread v3.0 Page 33

  • AaronTurner 3 Nov 2018 16:06:56 10,097 posts
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    You're actually thick as fuck if you can't understand or chose to ignore why Neil Lennon isn't liked. As I said above, it doesn't excuse any abuse he gets.

    Edited by AaronTurner at 16:07:54 03-11-2018
  • Armoured_Bear 3 Nov 2018 16:16:30 24,705 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    You're actually thick as fuck if you can't understand or chose to ignore why Neil Lennon isn't liked. As I said above, it doesn't excuse any abuse he gets.
    There are plenty of annoying , disliked people in football but they don’t get assaulted in stadiums and death threats with bullets sent in the post.

    “ let’s examine why the girl was raped, she’s not liked and was behaving provocatively, she didn’t get raped in England as there’s less attention there, she clearly deserved it as it’s not the people
    Of Scotland to blame, let’s examine why she made people rape her, she’s really annoying and hobby”

    Shameful, victim blaming bullshit.
  • AaronTurner 3 Nov 2018 16:24:34 10,097 posts
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    Yes, and I hope any person that does any of those kind of things gets prosecuted for it.

    I also think a lot of people dislike Lennon because he's dislikeable. Can you understand that?
  • Armoured_Bear 3 Nov 2018 16:32:00 24,705 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Yes, and I hope any person that does any of those kind of things gets prosecuted for it.

    I also think a lot of people dislike Lennon because he's dislikeable. Can you understand that?
    A lot of people dislike that raped girl because she’s dislikeable. Let’s focus on how dislikeable she is.
  • Armoured_Bear 3 Nov 2018 16:48:34 24,705 posts
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    Celtic 5 : Hearts 0

    Christie wonderful again.

    This was an inch perfect pass :)

    https://twitter.com/talkingbaws/status/1058754866603003904?s=12
  • Dgzter 3 Nov 2018 17:00:47 2,416 posts
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    @AaronTurner

    So let’s put aside the fact that I have stated categorically in my previous posts that: (1) Lennon can, indeed, be an unquestionable fanny; (2) he receives a lot of abuse which is NOT sectarianly-motivated; (3) he should absolutely be open to criticism in relation to his professional behaviour, which has at times fallen below the standard expected; and (4) aforementioned criticism should in no way be conflated with the rancid sectarian abuse he routinely receives—indeed, that it is very important to appreciate the nuances between the two. You’ve either completely ignored those parts of my posts, or you’ve just not bothered to read them. Fair dos.

    AaronTurner wrote:
    I hate this notion that any criticism of Lennon is either playing things down or even sectarian in itself. You should be able to examine the reasons behind these things without being accused of playing things down.
    What examination are you really giving to those reasons though, Aaron? Because I hate to tell you this, your post reads like a litany of textbook ‘playing-it-downisms’.

    You start by immediately questioning the validity of the victim’s claim (in this case Lennon) that there was an effigy of him being hung on display in the stands. Is your insinuation that you believe Lennon has fabricated this (fake news!)?

    Then you go on to say that, even if there was an effigy, this happens to lots of players; and you give some ‘whataboutery’ examples of Ryan Jack, or unspecified effigies directed at Rangers players. Presumably the take away from this is that you feel there’s nothing particular about the targeting of Lennon with such imagery? Nothing at all notable in terms of the consistency, volume and frequency of such incidences involving him?

    And, finally, because you yourself have never really heard anything really sectarian being uttered in Lennon’s direction—and nor have any of your mates—you would actually cast doubt on how widespread such occurrences actually are. Which is a personal anecdote in lieu of any statistical proof. Have I got that correct?

    I’m honestly not trying to be a dick to you, but this sure sounds like someone trying to play down the sectarian angle of the abuse Lennon receives—whether you’re doing so intentionally or inadvertently. Lennon can be a tit; who is actually denying that in this thread? Lots of players and managers can act like complete tits at times: Craig Levein, Derek McInnes, Brendan Rodgers, Scott Brown, Peter Hartley, Ryan Jack—we could all name a million I’m sure.

    But none of the above have been physically assaulted in the street; had bullets sent to them in the post on account of their religious persuasion; had threats of violence made against their families; or had charming little ditties sung about them, which include the lines: ‘Hang Neil Lennon/ Hang him high!/ So I might see that bastard die!/’.

    I’ll bow out of this now, as we are obviously not getting anywhere; however, let me also be clear that I don’t mean any of the above as a personal invective against you. Just the line of argumentation. I’m sure you, as I’m sure every one of us in this thread does, deplores sectarianism and agrees that it has no place in Scottish football.
  • Armoured_Bear 3 Nov 2018 17:09:58 24,705 posts
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    Celtic were brilliant today , will have to be even better next week to get anything against Leipzig.
    I think we’re better without Brown tbh, much more dynamic.
    Sad to see such nasty, dangerous tackles from Hearts near the end of the game.
  • Dgzter 3 Nov 2018 17:30:55 2,416 posts
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    @Armoured_Bear

    Great result for us today. Been a very tough week for Hearts, certainly: their injuries are going to make it very hard for them not to slip a bit in the coming weeks until Christmas. Levein has his work cut out for him.

    I’ve very little hopes for Leipzig, unfortunately :( I can help but think we’ll be a bit poo.
  • docrob 3 Nov 2018 17:46:47 1,020 posts
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    Dgzter wrote:
    @Armoured_Bear

    Great result for us today. Been a very tough week for Hearts, certainly: their injuries are going to make it very hard for them not to slip a bit in the coming weeks until Christmas. Levein has his work cut out for him.

    I’ve very little hopes for Leipzig, unfortunately :( I can help but think we’ll be a bit poo.
    Sadly I saw today coming, Celtic are hitting form, and we were missing half a team (and the best half at that). Having said that, all of us are really frustrated that we continually fail to perform in Glasgow. When we beat Celtic at Tynecastle, it was because we stopped them from playing. In Glasgow we just stand off and let them. Same goes for Sevco (which is worse because they are nowhere near as good). Levein seems to have a total mental block about this. We were useless in Glasgow in his first stint as well.

    Neither Killie nor Hibs have better squads than Hearts, but both of them seem able to go to Glasgow and compete. I have no idea why we roll over so easily.
  • docrob 3 Nov 2018 17:48:10 1,020 posts
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    Oh, and the great irony is that we have two strikers out on loan, but we can’t recall them outwith the window. And another one coming in January, but we couldn’t negotiate his early release after we sold Lafferty.

    We just have no luck.
  • Dgzter 3 Nov 2018 17:52:47 2,416 posts
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    Ouch. What’s your fixtures like in the next few weeks? Did you say Naismith’s out for six?
  • Armoured_Bear 3 Nov 2018 17:53:27 24,705 posts
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    docrob wrote:
    Dgzter wrote:
    @Armoured_Bear

    Great result for us today. Been a very tough week for Hearts, certainly: their injuries are going to make it very hard for them not to slip a bit in the coming weeks until Christmas. Levein has his work cut out for him.

    I’ve very little hopes for Leipzig, unfortunately :( I can help but think we’ll be a bit poo.
    Sadly I saw today coming, Celtic are hitting form, and we were missing half a team (and the best half at that). Having said that, all of us are really frustrated that we continually fail to perform in Glasgow. When we beat Celtic at Tynecastle, it was because we stopped them from playing. In Glasgow we just stand off and let them. Same goes for Sevco (which is worse because they are nowhere near as good). Levein seems to have a total mental block about this. We were useless in Glasgow in his first stint as well.

    Neither Killie nor Hibs have better squads than Hearts, but both of them seem able to go to Glasgow and compete. I have no idea why we roll over so easily.
    You seemed content to sit back and defend deeply from the beginning today but it's probably the best Celtic have played since the season before last tbh. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I don't think Killie or Hibs would have fared much better today.
  • Armoured_Bear 3 Nov 2018 17:53:53 24,705 posts
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    docrob wrote:
    Oh, and the great irony is that we have two strikers out on loan, but we can’t recall them outwith the window. And another one coming in January, but we couldn’t negotiate his early release after we sold Lafferty..
    Aye, that's annoying.
  • AaronTurner 3 Nov 2018 18:01:00 10,097 posts
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    Dgzter wrote:
    @AaronTurner

    So let’s put aside the fact that I have stated categorically in my previous posts that: (1) Lennon can, indeed, be an unquestionable fanny; (2) he receives a lot of abuse which is NOT sectarianly-motivated; (3) he should absolutely be open to criticism in relation to his professional behaviour, which has at times fallen below the standard expected; and (4) aforementioned criticism should in no way be conflated with the rancid sectarian abuse he routinely receives—indeed, that it is very important to appreciate the nuances between the two. You’ve either completely ignored those parts of my posts, or you’ve just not bothered to read them. Fair dos.

    AaronTurner wrote:
    I hate this notion that any criticism of Lennon is either playing things down or even sectarian in itself. You should be able to examine the reasons behind these things without being accused of playing things down.
    What examination are you really giving to those reasons though, Aaron? Because I hate to tell you this, your post reads like a litany of textbook ‘playing-it-downisms’.

    You start by immediately questioning the validity of the victim’s claim (in this case Lennon) that there was an effigy of him being hung on display in the stands. Is your insinuation that you believe Lennon has fabricated this (fake news!)?

    Then you go on to say that, even if there was an effigy, this happens to lots of players; and you give some ‘whataboutery’ examples of Ryan Jack, or unspecified effigies directed at Rangers players. Presumably the take away from this is that you feel there’s nothing particular about the targeting of Lennon with such imagery? Nothing at all notable in terms of the consistency, volume and frequency of such incidences involving him?

    And, finally, because you yourself have never really heard anything really sectarian being uttered in Lennon’s direction—and nor have any of your mates—you would actually cast doubt on how widespread such occurrences actually are. Which is a personal anecdote in lieu of any statistical proof. Have I got that correct?

    I’m honestly not trying to be a dick to you, but this sure sounds like someone trying to play down the sectarian angle of the abuse Lennon receives—whether you’re doing so intentionally or inadvertently. Lennon can be a tit; who is actually denying that in this thread? Lots of players and managers can act like complete tits at times: Craig Levein, Derek McInnes, Brendan Rodgers, Scott Brown, Peter Hartley, Ryan Jack—we could all name a million I’m sure.

    But none of the above have been physically assaulted in the street; had bullets sent to them in the post on account of their religious persuasion; had threats of violence made against their families; or had charming little ditties sung about them, which include the lines: ‘Hang Neil Lennon/ Hang him high!/ So I might see that bastard die!/’.

    I’ll bow out of this now, as we are obviously not getting anywhere; however, let me also be clear that I don’t mean any of the above as a personal invective against you. Just the line of argumentation. I’m sure you, as I’m sure every one of us in this thread does, deplores sectarianism and agrees that it has no place in Scottish football.
    You're joking. Go have a chat with Nacho Novo and ask him if he's ever had any of the above directed at him. In fact there is a video of him having "Novo I hope you die in your sleep, with a bullet for the ira" sung at him by some cretin on the street just weeks after he suffered a heart attack a couple of months ago. Was all the abuse he received sectarian?

    Any attack on Lennon should rightfully be fully dealt with and it is in no way acceptable.

    The discussion on whether he brings things on himself - well no one agrees that he deserves abuse. But the dislike for him? That's not necessarily sectarian. I dislike the man's character, but it's not sectarian, I just think he's a knob.
  • Dgzter 3 Nov 2018 18:16:09 2,416 posts
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    ... yeah, we’re done with this I think mate. You don’t appear interested in the concept of proportionality.

    As to your last paragraph, I honestly cannot fathom how you can read what I wrote and think that’s what I’m suggesting. I really thought I’d made that clear.

    Anyway, how about we talk about the football? Late win today? What did you say happened with the sending off?
  • AaronTurner 3 Nov 2018 18:34:39 10,097 posts
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    Proportionality meaning he receives more abuse than anyone else? You said no one else has his sort of treatment, but Novo has had songs about being murdered ever since he joined rangers, he's had his address posted on the internet, he's had his house vandalised with windows smashed in and "Novo rip" painted on it, he's had to have police protection at his house, hes had death threats posted to him, he's been physically attacked in the streets, people wishing his unborn baby is stillborn, I mean the list is endless really.

    Edited by AaronTurner at 18:35:31 03-11-2018

    Edited by AaronTurner at 18:36:08 03-11-2018
  • Dgzter 3 Nov 2018 19:05:46 2,416 posts
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    I didn’t say no one else ‘has’ it, Aaron. Could you please read my posts a bit more carefully: I said that no one else receives it with the consistency, volume and frequency that Lennon does. And yes, proportionality in the sense that he receives more abuse than anyone else, but also in the sense that he receives it from a much wider cross-section and demographic of Scottish football supporters.

    Those incidences relating to Nacho Novo were (and are) absolutely abhorrent. My understanding is that ALL of those incidents were attributed solely to lunatic Celtic supporters—particularly the death threat, which occurred after an Old Firm game in which Novo had scored. I don’t remember supporters from all the other Scottish clubs indulging in similar behaviour towards Novo—but I’m happy to be corrected if this was, indeed, the case.

    I think you’re quite right to say the attacks on Novo were not sectarian in nature, but what’s your point here? Just to establish that verbal abuse and death threats can be made without a sectarian context? Yes, of course they can. However, if you’re then suggesting that the death threats, bullets and bomb hoaxes sent to Lennon were non-sectarian in nature, then I’m afraid that’s a little difficult to argue given that many of these threats specifically referenced either his faith, or his Northern Irish heritage, or his role within the Northern Irish national football team whilst being a player at Celtic.

    Does that mean that all abuse Lennon gets is sectarian? No. Does that mean that everyone who dislikes Lennon does so based on religious bigotry? No. But none of that changes the fact that he DOES receive sectarian abuse, regularly—and it often manifests itself in some terrifying ways.

    I mean, I’ll confess I don’t know Novo’s situation to the extent that you perhaps do: are you honestly suggesting that the two situations are entirely comparable? That’s a genuine question, by the way, not a loaded one.
  • docrob 3 Nov 2018 19:54:44 1,020 posts
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    Dgzter wrote:
    Ouch. What’s your fixtures like in the next few weeks? Did you say Naismith’s out for six?
    Killie (H) and St Mirren (A) in November. Both are must win if we want to stay in the hunt. Then we have 7 fixtures in December, starting with a home game v Sevco on the 2nd.

    Naismith is out for ‘up to eight weeks’ as of a week ago - had to have a knee cartilage trimmed. Pretty much all of the injured players are out until after the winter break at least. At that point David Vanecek will arrive from Teplice, and we can recall Keena or Currie if we need to. Still a lot of football to play before then though.

    I think we should be looking to get an experienced free agent in on a short term deal. He won’t be fully fit, so we’d need to go for someone who wasn’t that mobile to begin with. Zeefuik (who was great, but had an arse the size of a small planet) would be ideal.
  • docrob 3 Nov 2018 19:56:32 1,020 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    docrob wrote:
    Dgzter wrote:
    @Armoured_Bear

    Great result for us today. Been a very tough week for Hearts, certainly: their injuries are going to make it very hard for them not to slip a bit in the coming weeks until Christmas. Levein has his work cut out for him.

    I’ve very little hopes for Leipzig, unfortunately :( I can help but think we’ll be a bit poo.
    Sadly I saw today coming, Celtic are hitting form, and we were missing half a team (and the best half at that). Having said that, all of us are really frustrated that we continually fail to perform in Glasgow. When we beat Celtic at Tynecastle, it was because we stopped them from playing. In Glasgow we just stand off and let them. Same goes for Sevco (which is worse because they are nowhere near as good). Levein seems to have a total mental block about this. We were useless in Glasgow in his first stint as well.

    Neither Killie nor Hibs have better squads than Hearts, but both of them seem able to go to Glasgow and compete. I have no idea why we roll over so easily.
    You seemed content to sit back and defend deeply from the beginning today but it's probably the best Celtic have played since the season before last tbh. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I don't think Killie or Hibs would have fared much better today.
    You may well be right, but I think we made it way too easy for Celtic today. Levein has admitted as much.
  • AaronTurner 3 Nov 2018 21:04:06 10,097 posts
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    Candieas sending off today https://mobile.twitter.com/Rossco5088/status/1058732620174028800/video/1
  • Armoured_Bear 3 Nov 2018 21:10:12 24,705 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Candieas sending off today https://mobile.twitter.com/Rossco5088/status/1058732620174028800/video/1
    That's terrible refereeing, sadly the norm in Scotland.
  • Dgzter 3 Nov 2018 21:33:23 2,416 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    Candieas sending off today https://mobile.twitter.com/Rossco5088/status/1058732620174028800/video/1
    That's terrible refereeing, sadly the norm in Scotland.
    Yup, laughably ridiculous. Should be easily overturned for him.

    On a side note: Anton Ferdinand??!! Lol
  • AaronTurner 4 Nov 2018 15:24:29 10,097 posts
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    Dgzter wrote:
    I didn’t say no one else ‘has’ it, Aaron. Could you please read my posts a bit more carefully: I said that no one else receives it with the consistency, volume and frequency that Lennon does. And yes, proportionality in the sense that he receives more abuse than anyone else, but also in the sense that he receives it from a much wider cross-section and demographic of Scottish football supporters.

    Those incidences relating to Nacho Novo were (and are) absolutely abhorrent. My understanding is that ALL of those incidents were attributed solely to lunatic Celtic supporters—particularly the death threat, which occurred after an Old Firm game in which Novo had scored. I don’t remember supporters from all the other Scottish clubs indulging in similar behaviour towards Novo—but I’m happy to be corrected if this was, indeed, the case.

    I think you’re quite right to say the attacks on Novo were not sectarian in nature, but what’s your point here? Just to establish that verbal abuse and death threats can be made without a sectarian context? Yes, of course they can. However, if you’re then suggesting that the death threats, bullets and bomb hoaxes sent to Lennon were non-sectarian in nature, then I’m afraid that’s a little difficult to argue given that many of these threats specifically referenced either his faith, or his Northern Irish heritage, or his role within the Northern Irish national football team whilst being a player at Celtic.

    Does that mean that all abuse Lennon gets is sectarian? No. Does that mean that everyone who dislikes Lennon does so based on religious bigotry? No. But none of that changes the fact that he DOES receive sectarian abuse, regularly—and it often manifests itself in some terrifying ways.

    I mean, I’ll confess I don’t know Novo’s situation to the extent that you perhaps do: are you honestly suggesting that the two situations are entirely comparable? That’s a genuine question, by the way, not a loaded one.
    Novo has been submitted to horrendous abuse and still is. I didn't say it wasn't sectarian, although I do find it interesting that you think it isn't? Why isn't it sectarian? And I do think there is an uneven coverage there.

    Anyway, regardless of all this, I was just saying that it's possible to dislike Lennon without it being sectarian. I'm not saying he doesn't get sectarian abuse, but I am saying he is a total bawbag.
  • Dgzter 4 Nov 2018 15:54:55 2,416 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Anyway, regardless of all this, I was just saying that it's possible to dislike Lennon without it being sectarian.
    I mean, seriously, if that was the genuine fucking extent of your point then ... I’m actually lost for words. Literally no one in this thread is suggesting otherwise, as has been stated MULTIPLE times.

    Edited by Dgzter at 15:55:39 04-11-2018
  • AaronTurner 4 Nov 2018 16:31:45 10,097 posts
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    That's great, we all agree then.
  • Armoured_Bear 4 Nov 2018 20:52:22 24,705 posts
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    Blahblah, blame the victim, distraction, whatabouttery, blah fucking blah.
  • AaronTurner 4 Nov 2018 22:10:57 10,097 posts
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    Lol you're such a knob :D
  • Dgzter 4 Nov 2018 22:22:50 2,416 posts
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    I’m not touching it. Good night lads x
  • AaronTurner 5 Nov 2018 06:12:01 10,097 posts
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    Dgzter wrote:
    I’m not touching it. Good night lads x
    Not touching my response? You talk of proportionality but as I said, I think what happens to Neil Lennon makes great headlines for the media and in the sense of proportionality actually I'm not sure all abuse given to other players or managers is covered equally. A case in point being Novo, but a more recent case it's interesting to note that when Lennon got hit by a coin the other day it was tweeted about by 14 BBC pundits afterwards. Only one tweeted about Morelos having coins thrown at him at the weekend.

    The whole Novo thing I find even more bizarre because I have no idea why he was singled out in particular. What's not sectarian about having songs sung at him about being murdered by the IRA, or being told he was shaming his religion by playing for rangers?
  • Dgzter 5 Nov 2018 07:38:13 2,416 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Not touching my response? You talk of proportionality but as I said, I think what happens to Neil Lennon makes great headlines for the media and in the sense of proportionality actually I'm not sure all abuse given to other players or managers is covered equally.
    We were talking, specifically, about the sectarian abuse that Lennon receives. If you are seriously arguing that you believe other players and managers in Scotland receive sectarian abuse with the same proportional consistency, volume and frequency as Neil Lennon, AND from as wide a cross-segment of Scottish Football Supporters then you are simply mistaken.

    AaronTurner wrote:
    A case in point being Novo, but a more recent case it's interesting to note that when Lennon got hit by a coin the other day it was tweeted about by 14 BBC pundits afterwards. Only one tweeted about Morelos having coins thrown at him at the weekend.
    ... So you are now talking about social media exposure and making some banal point about how stories about Lennon sell newspapers, is that right? Presumably, your inference is that it’s all being blown out of proportion by a complicit media? Have I got that correct?

    AaronTurner wrote:
    The whole Novo thing I find even more bizarre because I have no idea why he was singled out in particular.
    I had thought we were talking, specifically, about the death threat Novo received (the graffiti painted outside his house: ‘Novo RIP’) and possibly also the vandalism to his car, both of which incidences were referred to the police. You referenced those, and they are the only two incidents that I am aware of that are ostensibly comparable to the death threats and physical abuse that Lennon has received (on multiple occasions). As deplorable as these were (and are), neither were reported in the media as being sectarianly-motivated. You ask why he was singled out in particular? Hard to say, but he did happen to score in an Old Firm game the day before he received that vile death threat, so I believe the consensus at the time was that some lunatic had targeted him on account of this.

    AaronTurner wrote:
    What's not sectarian about having songs sung at him about being murdered by the IRA, or being told he was shaming his religion by playing for rangers?
    If the matter of Novo’s faith is being used to give him verbal abuse then that is obviously an example of religious bigotry. Did you really think I would argue against that, or not acknowledge it?

    Other players and managers do receive verbal abuse of this nature: we discussed Craig Levein being called an ‘orange bastard’ earlier in this very thread. Depressingly, I’m sure we could find tons of examples. However, neither Novo or Levein get these chants from supporters of EVERY OTHER Scottish club, and nor does that sentiment tend to manifest itself in physical attacks or death threats in anything like the way it does with Lennon.

    All I’m seeing from you, Aaron, is a lot of ‘whataboutery’ and false equivalences, coupled with the fact that you don’t seem to even be reading half of what’s already been said in this thread, which is getting rather tedious. So I’ll leave it there, as I’m sure everyone else is bored with this now anyway.

    But, by all means, do come back and have the last word: I’m on a plane later today, so will not be able to reply anyway.

    Edited by Dgzter at 07:39:08 05-11-2018
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