GuiltySpark wrote:Surely by removing the option for abortion-by-choice you're basically making it a hard and fast rule? |
Indian Woman Dies in Irish Hospital Ater Being Denied Termination of Pregnancy • Page 3
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reddevil93 14,285 posts
Seen 12 minutes ago
Registered 11 years agoCan't say I'd agree guiltysparks. Maybe on the 'just not wanting one' bit but I just don't see what good it does to bring a baby into the world if you're not going to be able to support it.
Like for instance if someone got pregnant at 17 and would've been a drain on society would it not have even better for them to have an abortion go to college get a degree and have a baby later on in life when they can actually support one. I know that's a very simplistic way of putting it but I've seen situations like this occur. -
kickerconspiracy 494 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 11 years ago@meme
That was just him trying to appear reasonable and open minded before he hit you with the right-wing bum gravy.
Edited by kickerconspiracy at 01:09:08 28-11-2012 -
GuiltySpark 6,757 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 13 years agomeme wrote:
That's not really what I meant.
GuiltySpark wrote:
Surely by removing the option for abortion-by-choice you're basically making it a hard and fast rule?
there isn't a hard and fast rule -
GuiltySpark wrote:
That's how you put it across. "If you don't use them then accept the consequences."
meme wrote:
That's not really what I meant.
GuiltySpark wrote:
Surely by removing the option for abortion-by-choice you're basically making it a hard and fast rule?
there isn't a hard and fast rule -
GuiltySpark 6,757 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 13 years agoreddevil93 wrote:
I just don't like the disposable attitude to unborn babies to be honest. It's not little unborn Timmy's fault that, for the majority, people can't use contraception properly.
Like for instance if someone got pregnant at 17 and would've been a drain on society would it not have even better for them to have an abortion go to college get a degree and have a baby later on in life when they can actually support one. I know that's a very simplistic way of putting it but I've seen situations like this occur. -
It's not necessarily the individual's fault either. Varying standards of sex education mean that some people still believe the withdrawal method works. -
localnotail 23,072 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 9 years agoWhat happens if you use contraception and it doesn't work? There are no fail-safe ways of not getting pregnant other than removing the capacity to reproduce permanently or just not having sex at all. Neither of these are options that many would choose.
What if you know you are not able to give a good life to a baby at that point? And, although you know there are very nice people out there who might want to adopt your child, you are pretty sure that carrying the baby to term and then giving it up would be soul-destroying?
Abortion should not be used as a form of contraception, but I do not believe it is fair to condemn anyone to a lifetime's responsibility for another human being when they have not consciously made the decision to create them.
I'm sure this has the potential to develop into an argument, so I'll try to keep it plain. This is my opinion. Yours may differ, as is your right. I fully accept that the idea of termination of a pregnancy does (and should) repulse some people. I do not believe the answer to this is to remove the act of abortion in the case of unwanted pregnancy. Better contraceptive development and education is the key, then hopefully the need for it will be reduced.
Although my child was very much planned, I've been pregnant twice before, despite sensible condom use and also with a coil/IUD in place. Neither of those occasions occurred at a time I would have been able to be a good mum - quite the opposite in fact. One of them ended naturally with a miscarriage, the other ended in a termination. Both of them were unfortunate accidents IMO, not divine providence.
Having either of those children would have meant I would almost certainly never have had the chance to meet my current partner and have a baby with him. A baby I am definitely able to give a good life to, and I love more than anything in the world.
For what it's worth, having been through it - my personal belief is that a baby is only a person with rights to protect once it gets to the point where it can survive apart from its mother. Until then, it's a part of her that she is growing, and she gets to make the decision as to what she feels is best for her, and it. It's not a decision lightly made, in my experience.
We'll leave the legalisation of drugs for another day
Edited by localnotail at 01:19:26 28-11-2012 -
kickerconspiracy 494 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 11 years ago@guiltyspark
That's utter crap. I've known a couple of people who have been through abortion and none of them saw it as something they'd just do to deal with an inconvenience. I'm sure there are a few people out there with the attitude you suggest but by in large it's a horrendous situation and decision for anyone to have to make and causes a fuckton of anguish.
Edited by kickerconspiracy at 01:17:31 28-11-2012 -
GuiltySpark 6,757 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 13 years agomeme wrote:
Well any semblance of logic falls apart when you introduce idiots, I guess.
It's not necessarily the individual's fault either. Varying standards of sex education mean that some people still believe the withdrawal method works. -
GuiltySpark wrote:
Nothing to do with idiots, everything to do with media influence.
meme wrote:
Well any semblance of logic falls apart when you introduce idiots, I guess.
It's not necessarily the individual's fault either. Varying standards of sex education mean that some people still believe the withdrawal method works.
Edited by meme at 01:21:29 28-11-2012 -
Basically, your position on the issue only really works when contraception is 100% reliable, or as close to it as dammit. And it isn't. Effectively, you're suggesting punishing the majority (people who use contraception but have it fail in some way and are in zero position to raise a child - a punishment on both the parents and child, ultimately) because of the minority (people who don't use contraception then abort whenever a pregnancy arrives) - and let's be clear, this is far, far in the minority.
Edited by meme at 01:27:05 28-11-2012 -
GuiltySpark 6,757 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 13 years ago@localnotail I'm not here to argue, this isn't the Wii U thread : )
I'm trying to be as reasonable about my views as possible (I hope that's showing through), I haven't had to deal with anything like that as I'm relatively young and I'm looking at the situation through a completely different lens than you are, but it's obviously the only way I can look at it, really.
It's definitely give and take, a blanket strategy will not work for every single case, it's true. It's just worrying about people's attitudes (clearly not yours), and I don't necessarily mean your generation, but teenagers nowadays. Like I said, once something becomes accepted we get desensitised to it, and it's a process that should be harrowing, given the implications about what you're doing.
However, you obviously have more authority on the situation, so let's leave it at that : ) -
GuiltySpark 6,757 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 13 years agomeme wrote:
"The Pull-out Puppy (from behind, doggy style) offers not only easy removal of the penis, but you get to come on her butt (if she agrees)."
GuiltySpark wrote:
Nothing to do with idiots, everything to do with media influence.
meme wrote:
Well any semblance of logic falls apart when you introduce idiots, I guess.
It's not necessarily the individual's fault either. Varying standards of sex education mean that some people still believe the withdrawal method works.
Only if she agrees eh, sounds reasonable I guess : )
Edited by GuiltySpark at 01:29:42 28-11-2012 -
Psychotext 62,855 posts
Seen 33 minutes ago
Registered 12 years agoAbortion is a genuinely unpleasant thing to go through (even the earliest form can be physically painful). Anyone who makes out it's a throwaway thing for the majority of people is either massively uninformed or is trying to push an agenda. See republican politicians in the US.
Morning after pill is a different story obviously, but most people who have had contraception fail on them usually don't realise until a couple of months later.
Part of the problem, of course, is that the media has had such fun portraying those who have had abortions as sluts or otherwise less than wholesome people. Though that's less of a problem in the UK (but not entirely).
Edited by Psychotext at 01:33:21 28-11-2012 -
Morning after pill is an odd one. Could it be considered an abortion or contraception? At the time of taking the person would have no medical way to check if they're actually pregnant or not. -
GuiltySpark 6,757 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 13 years agoPsychotext wrote:
Nah, of course I don't think that. If contraception failed on me and my (theoretical) girlfriend got pregnant, right now my feelings are that I would strive for her to keep it under nearly any situation.
Part of the problem, of course, is that the media has had such fun portraying those who have had abortions as sluts or otherwise less than wholesome people. Though that's less of a problem in the UK (but not entirely).
Hopefully that's enough to validate my opinion really. I'm not some kind of religious zealot trying to save the babies. -
localnotail 23,072 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 9 years ago@GuiltySpark It's a difficult subject, and we both agree that we wish there were no abortions, we just differ on how to achieve this goal.
@meme given that around 20% of conceptions apparently end in natural failure, the MAP is a grey area. That's not pleasant either. You men get off bloody lightly in these matters, shouldn't be whining about not liking condoms.
Would you men be willing to take chemical contraceptives? Could we trust you? -
Psychotext 62,855 posts
Seen 33 minutes ago
Registered 12 years agoWe'd be religious about it. It's about the only thing we'd do well. 
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I'd take chemical contraceptives if they were available. I'll be getting the snip in a few years, as we've more or less decided we don't actually really want children at all (though I'm still hesitant to 100% rule it out for the immediate moment). -
kickerconspiracy 494 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 11 years agoThere were medical trials for the male contraceptive injection near to where I live a couple of years ago and I was all up for volunteering, but the girlfriend forbade it.
She wasn't up for me being a guinea pig. -
GuiltySpark 6,757 posts
Seen 19 hours ago
Registered 13 years agolocalnotail wrote:
Hell yeah. It's like washing the dishes, men may take ten minutes a plate, but those plates are fucking clean, unlike women's cavalier attitude to washing up.
Would you men be willing to take chemical contraceptives? Could we trust you?
...What were we talking about again? -
Psychotext wrote:
I really hope that's true. I think it would work well in relationships, but we still need a barrier method for casual intercourse, for STDs. Or we develop some kind of vaginal bug-bomb douche to combat both sperm and germ. Preferably peppermint flavoured, to encourage foreplay.
We'd be religious about it. It's about the only thing we'd do well.
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