Dark Souls II Page 4

  • King_Edward 10 Dec 2012 07:39:08 11,470 posts
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    Telepathic.Geometry wrote:
    No way, Demon's Souls NPCs were more numerous and better developed than Dark Souls'. But, it's all opinion so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Or go to Lordran and try to kill each other... ;D
    No way! I'm a Siegmeyer if ever there was one. :D
  • Dangerous_Dan 10 Dec 2012 07:53:20 2,390 posts
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    Well I get your point, basically you want your friends to enjoy the game and not give up.
    Now I don't want the game to be too accessible but how about connecting to the whole world of a stranger.
    Like you can connect to the world of your friend after you found his sign - not just one area. Now you can leave messages for your friend, which will stay in the world and give him hints where to go and what to do. Messages which he'll recognize were created by you alone. To change the message system for DkS 2, that I think would be interesting.

    Otherwise the obscurity is part of the difficulty. It's not a game you play relaxed for the first time - you should be alert all the time, when NPCs talk to you then you should listen carefully, even write stuff down.

    For example: There are 2 bells you have to ring, one above and one below and he makes it clear to ring the one above first. So why would someone go DOWN the catacomb route? Easy answer: He didn't listen at all and the reason is because he's used to not give a shit about what NPC McNumpty is talking about - just look at the arrow or flashing door on the HUD.
    Which says nothing about the intelligence of your friend but about how many games he played where he just skipped the boring NPCs with their cheap talk. He learned that reflex by playing too many modern games where story is optional. Where pretty much everything is optional.

    Looking at the scenery and judging where to proceed is optional. Even dying is optional if you set it on easy ;)

    Rant over. ;)

    Edited by Dangerous_Dan at 07:54:42 10-12-2012
  • King_Edward 10 Dec 2012 07:57:24 11,470 posts
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    PazJohnMitch wrote:
    I was just trying to think of things which would make the game more accessible without adversally effecting the feel of the game.

    Maybe I went too far?

    I was just seeing if there was a way to make the game more accessible without making it easier.
    I was just kidding, but I don't think there's a lot you can change without devaluing something. Maps and sign posting could devalue exploration (why explore if you know where you're going?), more obviously motivated npcs would spoil the mystery. Would Solaire have been half as likable if he kept dropping inconsequential back story into the conversation?

    /hates change.
  • spamdangled 10 Dec 2012 07:59:17 31,584 posts
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    I can get on board with the suggestions for a menu map and a diary system. Not things that hold your hand or impair the sense of discovery, but negate the need for either a perfect memory or a notepad just to remember everything you've discovered.

    Other than that though, I can't think of anything else it could take from Skyrim that would be an improvement, and besides we already have a decent cross between the two - it was called Dragon's Dogma.
  • Dangerous_Dan 10 Dec 2012 08:01:32 2,390 posts
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    @Architect_z Heh, the Mario games, yes the first one was even more challenging than Dark Souls, you die too many times you get set back to the start.
    With Super Mario Bros. 3 (2 was actually no Mario game) they introduced that continue mechanic where you got set back to the start of the world you were in and not the start of the game.

    When people say that game is too difficult then they have obviously never played a Mario game - at least the older ones.
  • Dangerous_Dan 10 Dec 2012 08:04:33 2,390 posts
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    The map thing is interesting. Maybe you can buy a map at a merchant but it should not be perfect. Maps in ancient times were not that accurate and I'd find it nice if you had to interpret the map a bit for yourself. Like what's that building? Ah that's the big gate house... and so on.
  • spamdangled 10 Dec 2012 08:11:02 31,584 posts
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    I'd be happy with a map that just fills out as you go along and maybe points out the routes you havent taken yet, rather than one that is complete from the off.
  • mothercruncher 10 Dec 2012 08:23:34 14,806 posts
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    Your friends missed the "signposting" Dark Souls put in Paz.
    And it's arguably not their fault. Reared on a diet of modern games where npc's offer nothing but hackneyed fluff that you know you can "x" through because the game will make it obvious what you must do next, they probably missed it.
    The very first NPC at Firelink bonfire mentions that there are two bells to ring, one up above and one down below. There is only one path upward from at point.
  • PazJohnMitch 10 Dec 2012 08:23:40 13,439 posts
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    With regards to the map I was thinking that it would update when you reach a bonfire. However it would only show what was in your direct line of sight.

    It certainly would not show hidden exits of destructable walls. However if the player is observant the areas where the map had not been filled in would be useful places to investigate.

    As for showing my mate where to go. I actually went to his house and physically showed him by playing his game.

    The other friend understood that the bell was up. There are 3 exits from the original area. He found 2 of them. He thought the path to the catacombs was up. Bare in mind the first 2 skeletons killed him. At that point you have only decended a very small amount and the path is actually heading upwards.

    It was only when I played the game myself after he quit that I realised he was been a complete numpty. (It is not the first time either. He sold his N64 because he thought he had used a key in the wrong place on Ocarina's Water Temple).

    Edited by PazJohnMitch at 08:26:04 10-12-2012

    Edited by PazJohnMitch at 08:27:49 10-12-2012
  • quadfather 10 Dec 2012 08:48:21 30,887 posts
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    Personally, the way the game(s) leave you to it, withno signposting, is absolutely critical to the atmosphere. If you make it more accessible in a bad way you'll completely lose a massive chunk of It's soul, so to speak.

    I loved the fact that there were things that is only ever come across by talking to other players or randomly stumbling over them.

    This is part of the magic in the souls games and what sets them apart from everything else.

    Perhaps a very vague map might be interesting, but npcs for example should definitely stay the same. The games require people to prod and prod and prod more to get more out of it, and personally, I think it should stay like that
  • Lotos8ter 10 Dec 2012 09:30:25 2,557 posts
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    Talk and talk to NPC's, talk to them after you've talked to others or done a boss or events; read item descriptions. There's more there than you'll ever realise.

    Anyway, my speed run isn't going well although a lot better than first attempt. Survived Valley of Drakes for red tearstone ring and killed BK but didn't get the halberd drop, just the BK shield. Carried on and farmed for Quad's favourite, which is now at +5 and contemplating a drop into Blightown...
    Bearing in mind the Speed runner did Blightown in about 2.5 mins, I'll be happy with under 15 mins
  • quadfather 10 Dec 2012 09:51:52 30,887 posts
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    I need to watch that speedrun.

    And I STILL haven't got the fucking balder sword!

    2.5 mins for blighttown? Back door, waterwheel and then quelaag?
  • Architect_z 10 Dec 2012 10:21:00 2,470 posts
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    I never spoke to the chain mail guy who tells you where to go, I went to an area, realised then enemies were difficult, so I tried the other way and managed to succeed.
    Alot of the directional stuff is common sense. Skeletons who respawn when you try and kill them, who are tougher to kill and do more damage than the undead fools up the hill, leads me to believe i'm going the wrong way.

    I'm trying to think of ways for Dark Souls II to be more accessible. I like the map idea people keep mentioning.
    Maybe an item which could do a whole hot/cold thing to tell you where you need to go? I dont care really exploring is fun, dieing is sometimes fun.

    The first time I played Demon's Souls, right at the start, theres a red eye knight staring at you from across a bridge. I thought "oooo theres a treasure near him, and a big door!" but he rinsed me every single time I tried to fight him. Thats the beauty of exploration, the potential reward and the fear of not knowing whats round the corner, could be sweet, could be sour. ^_^
  • Deleted user 10 December 2012 10:25:30
    Did the same with that "red eye guy" on the bridge on Demon's Souls.
    Tried to fight him at the beginning, he kicked my arse, but I remembered he was was there for when I got stronger.
    Maybe having a hand drawn style map that fills in as you go, with hand written notes scrawled in important places(like an arrow pointing to that bridge, with "Tough Enemy" written or something.) would be beneficial in some cases. I could back that.
  • Deleted user 10 December 2012 10:27:35
    Maps don't have to tell you where you are going, other than a general idea.

    Morrowind's map gave you the mere shape of the island: the rest was all to be found. It was absolutely exhilarating to open it up and see that waiting for you.
  • quadfather 10 Dec 2012 10:31:56 30,887 posts
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    yup, it just takes too much away if it's not vague.

    In fact, make the next game more vague!
  • Tuffty 10 Dec 2012 10:34:34 4,123 posts
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    I guess I can identify with players having a hard time at the beginning if they're going down to the skeletons. Speaking personally, at first I thought it was the experience of Dark Souls, and it's reputation of being a tough as nails game. But when you go up instead of down and find enemies dying easier and hitting less harder, then you knew it was the way to go.
  • Dangerous_Dan 10 Dec 2012 10:35:00 2,390 posts
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    @quadfather Hehe start the game in a maze, a big one and it's pitch dark ;)

    That's how I'd do it. Maybe sometimes you find some glowing stones.
  • quadfather 10 Dec 2012 10:49:55 30,887 posts
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    Too right! You should start in tomb of the giants. See how you fucking get on with that :)
  • munki83 10 Dec 2012 10:53:14 1,846 posts
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    I think the only change I want is for the last boss not to be a absolute bastard to kill. As a knight he was the toughest boss by Dar...I spent hours trying to kill him till I gave up and summoned help from some guy who whooped his ass. Would be kinda cool if they gave each class a different final boss so a knight gets a good mele fight and mages get a battle of magic. The lore in the game is vague enough to allow this.
  • L_Franko Moderator 10 Dec 2012 10:58:19 9,695 posts
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    Like other in here I really don't want the game to be made easier in any way. No tutorial, no hand holding of any kind and no difficulty options.
    Throw me into a small room with a massive demon right at the very start and a message saying 'Good Luck' and I'll be happy.

    All the Souls fans have a very good understanding of the mechanics used so this can't be messed about with too much, this also means that if the game was made easier at all the regulars will have it finished within no time and the bitching will begin.
    The way you make the games easier for yourself up to this point is to find a forum or a wiki.
  • Architect_z 10 Dec 2012 11:05:47 2,470 posts
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    quadfather wrote:
    Too right! You should start in tomb of the giants. See how you fucking get on with that :)
    Hahah - Yeah! Without a skull lantern!

    Actually I've always thought a maze idea would be good for the Souls games, and it changes randomly with enemies in different spawn points. ^_^

    Edited by Architect_z at 11:37:30 10-12-2012
  • quadfather 10 Dec 2012 11:15:08 30,887 posts
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    chaos strikes back for the amiga started you in a room, pitch black, surrounded by man eating worms. You had no weapons, could see fuck all, and had to work out puzzles just to get out of the first room. You were lucky if all 4 characters made it out alive.

    And people want a fucking tutorial?

  • JinTypeNoir 10 Dec 2012 14:20:40 4,392 posts
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    Yet crucially quadfather, Chaos Strikes Back was a sequel/expansion-y followup to the first game and the first Dungeon Master started you on a floor with no enemies, and the next floor had a very easy to understand layout. Even if you never read the manual (which would make Dungeon Master only slightly less more difficult, as you could piece together several magic spells, and that was about it) it wasn't that hard to grok.

    Chaos Strikes Back was specifically for people who wanted more of the same. Dark Souls II may not be that type of sequel and it might not even share very much in the way mechanics with Dark Souls. That would only work if the mechanics were basically close to identical.

    If it did do something like Chaos Strikes Back though, that would be incredibly amusing. Kind of like that downloadable set of levels Nintendo released 2 months ago for New Super Mario Bros. 2 whose difficulty is only one step from impossible.
  • Dangerous_Dan 10 Dec 2012 14:57:59 2,390 posts
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    A maze should definitely be included in DkS 2. It's a common theme in classic fantasy, Sci-Fi, mythology... Would work very well in the Souls games. Miyazaki or whoever is behind the level/art/myth design understands human psychology quite well. How to make the game find its way into the player's mind.
  • Architect_z 10 Dec 2012 15:09:38 2,470 posts
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    @DD - Think we should sent an email to FROM about your maze idea? It would be a great place to invade people, wouldnt it. Muhahahaha.

    You could have a boss in the middle. The "maze keeper" or something.
  • Dangerous_Dan 10 Dec 2012 15:38:24 2,390 posts
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    That alone could be a whole gameplay idea. Maybe such an area would work well as a special arena. During your time in the maze other players are going to invade you - or really tough NPC enemies if you play offline.
  • quadfather 10 Dec 2012 15:47:40 30,887 posts
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    @JinTypeNoir - True. I suppose in some ways, it's the other way round for the souls games. I think Demon's is harder than dark personally

    Hehe, yes, there should be more devilish traps - ala prince of persia: shadow and the flame.

    That would be excellent.


  • mothercruncher 10 Dec 2012 17:42:01 14,806 posts
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    One of the most impressive things about Dark Souls is that it had the chutzpah to hide a whole section away so well that many players would complete the game and never know it was there.
    The balls on that game!
  • King_Edward 10 Dec 2012 20:15:47 11,470 posts
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    Yeah. Would've been DLC in most games.
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