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Hi all, General thread on sound quality but I've raised this because of the following. http://techland.time.com/2012/10/03/who-cares-about-neil-youngs-ultra-high-quality-music-standard/ Okay this is fairly old news. However, I've been getting into a few debates with a few mates over Xmas about this. Has CD quality actually been reduced that much over the last few years as everything goes digital? Studios know that with the likes of iTunes that they are probably going to make the most money from there. Therefore why bother in making the CD sound quality any good? Have you got any CDs which stand out as great remasters? Or don't you give a shit? Or is it down to the quality of the speakers (which will obviously have an obvious impact. Obviously). I've got no idea about this but when studios put things onto iTunes, do they have a digital master which goes onto a CD and then also gets 'downgraded' for iTunes? |
The sound quality thread
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beastmaster 22,373 posts
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Registered 17 years ago -
mal 29,326 posts
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Registered 20 years agoThere's a stronger tendency these days to over-compress music and reduce the dynamic range, which sometimes finds its way into remasters in such a way as to piss off long term fans, although it's fair to say quite a lot of old rock music has rather too much dynamic range in it, arranged in such a way to scare the bejeezus out of you just as you've sat down from putting on the record player. I guess it's true that stuff with less dynamic range in it does tend to survive compression with less audible artifacts, though I've no idea if that's why this trend has come about (personally I suspect it has more to do with not blasting your eardrums at unfortunate moments while shopping while using your walkman or driving with your car CD player on). -
buggrit 5,178 posts
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Registered 14 years agoRe iTunes - there's this excellent article on the matter: http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/02/mastered-for-itunes-how-audio-engineers-tweak-tunes-for-the-ipod-age/
CDs have been crap for years, by and large - due to most people listening on shitty systems and not understanding the concept of dynamic range, for the most part. Hence me moving most of my recreational listening to vinyl these days. -
Hot masters are ruining music these days. It's particularly annoying when a really good old album with decent dynamic range gets a crushing new remaster where everything is loud.
I know it's because people want to listen to music on the tube or in the car, but it shouldn't mean records have the life crushed out of them.
I wouldn't listen to Marillion's Brave in the car, I wouldn't be able to hear half of it. But I certainly don't want a remaster where everything is banging away. Iron Maiden released A Matter of Life and Death without mastering it. It went straight from mix to CD. And it sounds fabulous for it. -
Blaizefm 232 posts
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Registered 11 years agoBrave - what a fab album.
Sorry, carry on. -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
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Registered 20 years agoThe crushing loudness gets on my nerves. The fidelity of a recording, not so much now my hearing is going to shit. -
mal 29,326 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agobuggrit wrote:
Hmm, good point about audio engineers mastering separately for separate target mediums. I'd always assumed beat-heavy music sounded better on vinyl due to the physicality of the medium (the head itself can bounce around slightly in sympathetic rhythm) but the fact everything from old rock to drum and bass sounds better on vinyl probably points to engineers using the dyniamic range you can get out of heavyweight vinyl rather than my magic dancing head.
Re iTunes - there's this excellent article on the matter: http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/02/mastered-for-itunes-how-audio-engineers-tweak-tunes-for-the-ipod-age/
CDs have been crap for years, by and large - due to most people listening on shitty systems and not understanding the concept of dynamic range, for the most part. Hence me moving most of my recreational listening to vinyl these days. -
GuiltySpark 6,790 posts
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Registered 17 years agoThe quiet parts on Brave do my fucking tree in. -
oakie007 291 posts
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Registered 17 years ago -
oakie007 291 posts
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Registered 17 years agoNow this is a well produced album...... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Totally-Enormous-Extinct-Dinosaurs/e/B002ALCICU/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1356986037&sr=1-1 -
I think listening to music as a passtime is dying out a bit. By that i mean really listening to the music. I'll pick out a few CDs for the hifi, pull the curtains, turn off the phone and just listen. Dynamic range and subtly just doesn't matter to most people.
One album from my collection that immediately springs to mind as being a victim of the loudness war is Rush's 'Vapour Trails'. It really pisses me off as I think it's probably the most underrated album in their catalogue, but listening to it at home (especially with headphones) is just a no go, as it's so horribly fatiguing and it's just a mess of compressed noise. I think Rush were so displeased with it themselves that there's a remix of it in the works.
Off the top of my head, most of Steven Wilson's of Porcupine Tree fame production jobs that I've heard have great dynamic range (although 'Deadwing' isn't his crowning glory). -
The birth of digital music heralded a new age of terrible sound quality, itunes move for DRM free 256kps mp4 arguably put transparency and quality back with buyers, heck they say piracy dipped massive amounts after that.
That's not the issue with sound quality for music we have now though, it's the fucking loudness war and it's massive effect on dynamics. -
buggrit 5,178 posts
Seen 5 days ago
Registered 14 years agomal wrote:
I think it's as much to do with sympathetic, skilled people doing the mastering as anything else - cutting vinyl masters is a genuine art. There's actually LESS headroom on vinyl than on CD (mostly due to the noise floor), but it's how it's dealt with that counts. There's no escaping that well-mastered music on good quality vinyl played through decent kit sounds bloody wonderful though - there's a really different sense of weight and realness to the sound that just isn't there on CD
buggrit wrote:
Hmm, good point about audio engineers mastering separately for separate target mediums. I'd always assumed beat-heavy music sounded better on vinyl due to the physicality of the medium (the head itself can bounce around slightly in sympathetic rhythm) but the fact everything from old rock to drum and bass sounds better on vinyl probably points to engineers using the dyniamic range you can get out of heavyweight vinyl rather than my magic dancing head.
Re iTunes - there's this excellent article on the matter: http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/02/mastered-for-itunes-how-audio-engineers-tweak-tunes-for-the-ipod-age/
CDs have been crap for years, by and large - due to most people listening on shitty systems and not understanding the concept of dynamic range, for the most part. Hence me moving most of my recreational listening to vinyl these days..gif)
Heavyweight vinyl is used more for rigidity than any sonic benefit, unless you start cutting 12" records at 45rpm (I have a few albums like this and they're excellent). -
I have SD ears. -
Dirtbox 92,595 posts
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Registered 19 years ago -
gammonbanter 2,282 posts
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Registered 14 years agoNirvana unplugged is supposed to sound great on CD!
My main problem is despite having decent kit, I'm scared to turn it up loud - headphones ftw! -
It's ironic that in making music so consistently loud for folks to listen to in noisy environments via headphones they've made it so fatiguing.
Listening to a full hot-mastered album on earphones is a real test of endurance. -
Blaizefm 232 posts
Seen 5 days ago
Registered 11 years agoOne good (bad?) example is the latest Stone Sour Album, House of Gold and Bones part 1. There is an absolute ton of sibilance (when he sings the esses) which means I end up having to stop listening to it. It's annoying as the album is brilliant.
Another album I can't listen to despite its brilliance is Progress Reform by iLikeTrains.
And let's not talk about Metallica's Death Magnetic. Shocking. You can tell how bad it is when people are ripping the stems from the Guitar Hero versions and remastering the album.
All of the above I've noticed because of high-end earphones. -
Death Magnetic's problems go beyond the terrible hot master. Lots of it was recorded with clipping, so it's fucked whatever you do at mixing or later.
Typical Rick Rubin bullshit. Takes the money and leaves bands to cock it up on their own.
Another terrible mastering job is Iron Maiden's Dance of Death. Which is why the band probably didn't master the next album at all. Though it still suffers because producer Kevin Shirley has cloth ears. All his recent albums - such as those with Joe Bonamassa sound like he's turned the treble off and didn't notice.
Edited by Maturin at 22:38:33 01-01-2013 -
Dirtbox wrote:
That very much depends on what era you're talking about, no? Do you mean early blues, big band etc?
For an example just look at early recordings that have shaped and molded the music we hear now that sound like cack compared to a modern recording.
I had both the mono and stereo version of Highway 61 on CD and the mono absolutely kicks the stereo versions' arse. Remasters are almost always a mess and indeed the loudness wars have ruined contemporary production.
Similar to Dirtbox, I have loads of stuff to say on this subject but not much capacity at the moment, so it'll be one for tomorrow. -
To be fair though, the Dylan mono CDs have been remastered heavily as well, while the (dcades old) stereo recordings were never quite that. But Sony are wizards are remastering, anyhow. What they did to the Columbia records back catalogue is just astounding. -
Maturin wrote:
Couldn't agree more. This has bugged the shit out of me for years.
Though it still suffers because producer Kevin Shirley has cloth ears. All his recent albums...
He's up there with Billy Anderson as one of those producers that just leave the music sounding utterly lifeless. -
mal 29,326 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agobuggrit wrote:
Most of the times I've noticed it it's been on old dance 12"es running at 45rpm. Seems to me the thicker vinyl lets them cut deeper grooves giving them the option to run the bottom end at decent amplitudes before the head jumps out of the groove by itself - though how much of it is due to that, and how much is due to keeping the record playing on poorly isolated decks in a noisy club I dunno.
Heavyweight vinyl is used more for rigidity than any sonic benefit, unless you start cutting 12" records at 45rpm (I have a few albums like this and they're excellent). -
skuzzbag 5,950 posts
Seen 5 years ago
Registered 17 years agoWhen you load up FL Studio or Cubase (or whatever) it's pretty standard these days to listen back to the mix with and without a mastering limiter on the main outs - at least for bedroom producers it is.
Skip back 15 years and you'd never mix through a limiter - that stuff was strictly for the mastering engineer. On a normal analog / digital desk you'd be working with huge headroom and the mix would not sound ACE until the mastering engineer did their bit. -
UncleLou wrote:
That will be the result of the millions Sony sensibly invested in the world's first all digital Pro mixing desk (Sony OXF-R3).
To be fair though, the Dylan mono CDs have been remastered heavily as well, while the (dcades old) stereo recordings were never quite that. But Sony are wizards are remastering, anyhow. What they did to the Columbia records back catalogue is just astounding.
The team still work in Pro Audio
http://www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plugins/About-History.htm
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2010/01/interview-sound-legend-paul-frindle-and-a-story-behind-the-digital-audio-revolution/
So looking for music from studios that used the OXF-R3 or plugins from these people will most likely be better than others. -
buggrit 5,178 posts
Seen 5 days ago
Registered 14 years ago@mal That's all certainly some of it, but you have to bear in mind that DJ decks allow (even demand) you run a much higher tracking weight than a home turntable - this is to help ensure the needle stays in the grooves under, as you say, more challenging conditions. Lighter tracking weight, differently-shaped styli and a more 'relaxed' listening environment make for a different set of criteria for home decks - I wouldn't recommend using a Technics 1210 at home unless you know what you're doing and have a 'hifi' cartridge rather than a 'DJ' one Likewise, don't put your precious first-press Black Sabbath vinyl on a 1210 unless you want it to be potentially ruined... -
buggrit 5,178 posts
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Registered 14 years agoMaturin wrote:
AAAAAAAAAAAGH KEVIN FUCKING SHIRLEY THAT CUNTY DEAF SHITBAG!
Another terrible mastering job is Iron Maiden's Dance of Death. Which is why the band probably didn't master the next album at all. Though it still suffers because producer Kevin Shirley has cloth ears. All his recent albums - such as those with Joe Bonamassa sound like he's turned the treble off and didn't notice.
Sorry, I really really hate his work
He's the very worst thing about any album he gets his useless fat fingers near, I can't understand why anyone uses him at all! -
buggrit 5,178 posts
Seen 5 days ago
Registered 14 years agoFuzzyDuck wrote:
Billy Anderson has produced a lot of very decent-sounding records - his work with Neurosis, Sleep, Orange Goblin, Jawbreaker, Buzzov-En, Om etc all sounds really good to me. Always better on vinyl though, most likely due to superior mastering.
He's up there with Billy Anderson as one of those producers that just leave the music sounding utterly lifeless. -
mrharvest 5,718 posts
Seen 2 weeks ago
Registered 18 years agoThis is an interesting thread. My opinion is that sound quality has been getting better, rather than worse, outside of major releases. But I'd also say that the loudness wars are an aesthetic rather than a sound quality issue. However I don't listen to mainstream music so this opinion is purely academic on my part.
Also I'm of the opinion that vinyl releases sound better because the medium has more distortion, less headroom and weaker stereo separation than CDs. If you are getting more bass from your LPs then there's probably something wrong with your RIAA. -
On-topic rant from Greg Calbi of Sterling Sound:
.gif)
He's the very worst thing about any album he gets his useless fat fingers near, I can't understand why anyone uses him at all! Sometimes posts may contain links to online retail stores. If you click on one and make a purchase we may receive a small commission. For more information, go here.
