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I think there's a difference between complementing someone on their new clothes or not pushing them into a puddle and actively adapting your behaviour based simply on whether the person has tits. There will always be something you could label sexism. Is it sexist that I can wander around with no top on in the summer and not get in trouble? Is it sexist that I can have facial and body hair without being looked on as a freak? At the end of the day, the sexes are different - duh - and will be treated accordingly. To look at it from another angle, is it ageist to not allow kids to drive or to discourage pensioners from bungie jumping? |
Chivalry • Page 2
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Khanivor 44,800 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 20 years ago -
chopsen 21,958 posts
Seen 10 hours ago
Registered 16 years agomeme wrote:
Does that mean you stand there for ages waiting for them to come through the door, then slam it in their face at the last minute?
I agree with kal, but it also goes into competition to how I was raised. Every time a situation like that happens I end up with basically this debate internalised. -
quadfather 39,069 posts
Seen 3 days ago
Registered 11 years agoZuluHero wrote:
I do this. Isn't it based on the fact that if a car goes by in the rain, you'll get splashed but not the woman?
I was brought up by quite old fashioned parents, so I'll do things like always walking nearest the road when passing a woman walking who is walking towards me (there are loads of this little weird ones, that most people will have forgotten).
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Khanivor 44,800 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 20 years agoCunts who don't say thank you when you do that really piss me off. I could open a whole can of worms by mentioning a regular observation I've made here based on a characteristic which seems linked to the frequency of saying thanks. But I shan't. It's not Friday. -
quadfather wrote:
I think it's so that if you choose to attack her, you've blocked her route of escape.
ZuluHero wrote:
I do this. Isn't it based on the fact that if a car goes by in the rain, you'll get splashed but not the woman?
I was brought up by quite old fashioned parents, so I'll do things like always walking nearest the road when passing a woman walking who is walking towards me (there are loads of this little weird ones, that most people will have forgotten).
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ZuluHero wrote:
kalel wrote:
Oh ffs, Just give her a friendly tap on the bum and tell her you agree with her.
Khanivor wrote:
I just don't see how that isn't intrinsically sexist.
I think in this day and age men could choose to accept the role of the gentleman, giving up seats to young women and all that.
I suppose you could argue it's somehow "post-feminist" - recognising the equality of women yet embracing the spirit gentlemanly behaviour at the same time. That just kind of feels like bollocks though.
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@Mr_Sleep A very good point. I think I'll spend a week deliberatley slamming doors in to peoples faces and compare the pleasure I get from that with the pleasure derived from being courteous. Whatever gives me greater pleasure, is what I'll do from now on.
But then I also put cats in bins so I can walk round the block only to be the one to happen along and "rescue" said animal.
Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:10:18 17-04-2013 -
Chopsen wrote:
In my life I have know women that probably would question out loud the action of someone offering them a seat or flat out refuse the offer. Not in a nasty way mind.
I think even most women would find that a bit patronising and weird tbh. (the offering of a seat on the basis of owning a pair of ovaries)
I'll offer my seat to a lady I know but will have second thoughts about it for a stranger. Things can easily be blown way out of proportion these days. -
L_Franko wrote:
The more common situation is when a seat becomes available equidistant to a man and a woman. I would say most times this happens the man will offer the seat to the woman, but wouldn't if it were a man.
Chopsen wrote:
In my life I have know women that probably would question out loud the action of someone offering them a seat or flat out refuse the offer. Not in a nasty way mind.
I think even most women would find that a bit patronising and weird tbh. (the offering of a seat on the basis of owning a pair of ovaries)
I'll offer my seat to a lady I know but will have second thoughts about it for a stranger. Things can easily be blown way out of proportion these days.
I have to admit, I do this as well. You just feel such a cunt taking the seat if a woman is standing there. -
chopsen 21,958 posts
Seen 10 hours ago
Registered 16 years agoIf I was in competition for anyone for a seat I would probably offer it to the other person, even if it was man. Mainly because I'm a complete pushover. -
L_Franko wrote:
Agreed, most women I know would laugh out loud if I offered them my seat. "The Perfect Gentleman" doesn't exist any more and is as outdated as the Robertsons Gollywog. Times have moved on and whilst most of us move on with them there are still women, and men out there with the belief that men should extend extra courtesy towards a female based on gender. Thankfully these people are now fewer and fewer.
Chopsen wrote:
In my life I have know women that probably would question out loud the action of someone offering them a seat or flat out refuse the offer. Not in a nasty way mind.
I think even most women would find that a bit patronising and weird tbh. (the offering of a seat on the basis of owning a pair of ovaries)
I'll offer my seat to a lady I know but will have second thoughts about it for a stranger. Things can easily be blown way out of proportion these days.
I'm basing this on a scuffle I had in a nightclub a few years ago, suddenly found myself picked on by some guy and his manky bird. Never met them before but they obviously didn't like my smooth moves on the dance floor. Whilst he acted all hard and came in with a few shoves, it was his mrs who bottled me over the head. If the bouncers hadn't intervened I would have lamped her one regardless of whether she needs to sit down to take a piss or not.
Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:15:58 17-04-2013
Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:17:03 17-04-2013 -
kalel wrote:
I agree, I would do the same in that situation.
The more common situation is when a seat becomes available equidistant to a man and a woman. I would say most times this happens the man will offer the seat to the woman, but wouldn't if it were a man.
I have to admit, I do this as well. You just feel such a cunt taking the seat if a woman is standing there. -
SClaw 826 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 12 years agoThis is an interesting subject.
I’m going to throw a fox amongst the chickens by saying I’m utterly unchivalrous and, in the eyes of the masses, probably downright rude. Apparently.
I won’t hold a door open for anyone, I won’t offer to help you lift your (pram, shopping trolley dealy, etc, whatever) off the train, I won’t give up my seat, I won’t help you carry heavy things. Why? Because it’s fucking rude and presumptuous for anyone to assume their help is required.
You offer your seat to an old person (or either gender) on the train? Fuck you. How do you know that old person is weaker than you and can’t stand? They could have just come from a bloody marathon, while you nearly died coming down the stairs to get to your train? And even if they are OBVIOUSLY weaker they may still want to endure it for their pride, because they are allowed that despite being decrepit in your eyes. Incidentally, the “you” in that isn’t directed at anyone specifically – just every smug tosser who thinks they are being “polite” with these things.
Women. Ha. Wheel chair users, people with walking sticks, the blind. I don’t go out of my way for any of them. I just treat the fuckers as if they were regular, completely capable people who are totally capable of doing things for themselves. Or, you know, capable of asking if they can’t because they are adults regardless of their gender or physical capabilities.
I’ve often been criticised for this apparently aberrant behaviour, but people miss the fact I’ll jump to help anyone if ASK ME FOR IT.
Jumping in and helping without being asked? That’s not chivalrous at all. It’s presumptuous at best and patronising at worst. I absolutely hate it. -
smoothpete 37,743 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 17 years agoWhat fucks me off is all the advertising where men are portrayed as morons. No way would that be on telly if the genders were reversed. There is something to be said for being a "gentleman", at least it's adhering to some sense of having testicles, not like the emasculated and / or moronic man image put forward in the media. -
@Deckard1 He's got a point though.
Edited by BillCityfingers at 16:20:01 17-04-2013 -
kalel wrote:
It's a fair point too. Not that I think it's a bad thing at all, if I hold a door open for a woman and she thinks that's kind of me and expresses that then we both go away happy. I always find it interesting the reaction when someone doesn't thank you. There's often a slight twinge of, "why did I bother then?", which is kind of stupid as I bothered partly for my own reasons.
Mr_Sleep wrote:
There's some name for this in Catholic theology where there's a paradox in charity and pride being linked (one is a key virtue and the other a mortal sin). Can't remember what it's called but I remember my father in law explaining it to me once.
How often do other people consider that their acts of politeness are actually slightly self serving? It's a weird quirk that the politeness of opening a door at least somewhat makes you feel good about yourself. I have held a door open for ages when really I should have just walked on but while it seems like the right thing to do it also gives me a little bit of pleasure to be thanked for something so unnecessary. -
BillCityfingers wrote:
Let me know how your experiment goes.
@Mr_Sleep A very good point. I think I'll spend a week deliberatley slamming doors in to peoples faces and compare the pleasure I get from that with the pleasure derived from being courteous. Whatever gives me greater pleasure, is what I'll do from now on.
But then I also put cats in bins so I can walk round the block only to be the one to happen along and "rescue" said animal. -
I do actually agree that it's a shame people aren't more comfortable asking for help when they need it. It would solve a lot of these issues.
I have actually had a woman ask me for a seat on the tube before. She didn't tell me why she wanted it, but I assumed she had good reason if she asked, and gave it up. -
@Mr_Sleep I will. I may get beaten up a few times. -
Holding a door open for someone isn't assuming they'd need help to open a door. -
joeymoto108 743 posts
Seen 4 days ago
Registered 13 years agoSClaw wrote:
I'm pretty sure you're gonna die alone. You might want to rethink your life.
This is an interesting subject.
I’m going to throw a fox amongst the chickens by saying I’m utterly unchivalrous and, in the eyes of the masses, probably downright rude. Apparently.
I won’t hold a door open for anyone, I won’t offer to help you lift your (pram, shopping trolley dealy, etc, whatever) off the train, I won’t give up my seat, I won’t help you carry heavy things. Why? Because it’s fucking rude and presumptuous for anyone to assume their help is required.
You offer your seat to an old person (or either gender) on the train? Fuck you. How do you know that old person is weaker than you and can’t stand? They could have just come from a bloody marathon, while you nearly died coming down the stairs to get to your train? And even if they are OBVIOUSLY weaker they may still want to endure it for their pride, because they are allowed that despite being decrepit in your eyes. Incidentally, the “you” in that isn’t directed at anyone specifically – just every smug tosser who thinks they are being “polite” with these things.
Women. Ha. Wheel chair users, people with walking sticks, the blind. I don’t go out of my way for any of them. I just treat the fuckers as if they were regular, completely capable people who are totally capable of doing things for themselves. Or, you know, capable of asking if they can’t because they are adults regardless of their gender or physical capabilities.
I’ve often been criticised for this apparently aberrant behaviour, but people miss the fact I’ll jump to help anyone if ASK ME FOR IT.
Jumping in and helping without being asked? That’s not chivalrous at all. It’s presumptuous at best and patronising at worst. I absolutely hate it. -
Pac-man-ate-my-wife 7,087 posts
Seen 4 days ago
Registered 18 years ago@SClaw You could just ask politely if they need help. Seems straightforward enough. -
Mola_Ram 26,187 posts
Seen 9 hours ago
Registered 9 years agoI was brought up to be gentlemanly, and while I basically agree about the sexism thing, and while I don't go overboard with it, it's still something that I just generally do and not even think about. Kind of a hard habit to break, I've found.
I hold doors open for basically anyone, though. -
kalel wrote:
I have a bad back and so long tube journeys stood up do me no good at all, however I have never once asked a woman if I could have their seat. Otherwise I look fine so I can't see how someone would think to give up their seat. In your previous example I almost always rush to get a seat first and it's amazing the looks you get off some people if you beat a woman to the seat!
I have actually had a woman ask me for a seat on the tube before. She didn't tell me why she wanted it, but I assumed she had good reason if she asked, and gave it up.
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