When DVD's change layer...

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  • lardy 18 Nov 2002 14:01:27 52 posts
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    I don't have many DVD's but some of them manage to change layer and therefore pause at the most unfortunate places - this aspect of DVD watching always seems to be overlooked and it can be bloody annoying. And how come some disks will do it in half a second and others take 3 to 4 - bad authoring? And another thing - on menus and stuff where you select your option, the item you're moving often doesn't line up where it should and looks really amateurish - again, is this bad workmanship? I assume so as some disks are fine. Noticeable on Star Wars Episode 1 (but let's face it this is the least of it's problems!).
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 14:05:49 19,141 posts
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    The delay time when switching layers also depends on your player. It should never take more a second tho.
  • sam_spade 18 Nov 2002 14:06:23 15,745 posts
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    "The layer change is invisible on some players, but it can cause the video to freeze for a fraction of a second or up to 4 seconds on other players. The "seamlessness" depends as much on the way the disc is prepared as on the design of the player. OTP is also called RSDL (reverse-spiral dual layer). The advantage of two layers is that long movies can use higher data rates for better quality than with a single layer. See 1.27 for more about layer changes."

    From the DVD FAQ
  • lardy 18 Nov 2002 16:10:53 52 posts
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    ssuellid wrote:
    The delay time when switching layers also depends on your player. It should never take more a second tho.
    Varies wildly from disc to disc though - must be the mastering.
  • Deleted user 18 November 2002 16:16:21
    sam_spade wrote:
    "The layer change is invisible on some players, but it can cause the video to freeze for a fraction of a second or up to 4 seconds on other players. The "seamlessness" depends as much on the way the disc is prepared as on the design of the player. OTP is also called RSDL (reverse-spiral dual layer). The advantage of two layers is that long movies can use higher data rates for better quality than with a single layer. See 1.27 for more about layer changes."

    What it's basically saying is DVD technology is shite.
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 16:19:07 19,141 posts
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    No it does not. Its saying that some manufacturers of DVD players and disc have implemented the layer change badly.
  • Whizzo 18 Nov 2002 16:21:33 44,807 posts
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    Some discs are worse than others, however well mastered ones have the layer change between scenes and you hardly ever notice them these days. There's only so much stuff that can fit on one layer after all and thankfully the days of flippers should be long gone! :-)
  • gizmo 18 Nov 2002 16:22:45 2,100 posts
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    FB:
    "What it's basically saying is DVD technology is shite."

    FB: from another thread
    "All you're doing is screaming "that sucks" from the sidelines without a single ounce of credible rebuttal or decent alternative. How credible do you think that makes you look? Not very. It also make you look unpleasant."

    LOL
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 16:23:58 19,141 posts
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    There were some guidelines proposed that you should put some effort into the disc mastering so that the layer change should occur between scenes - if possible. A decent modern player should have a barely noticable delay anyway.
  • Deleted user 18 November 2002 16:28:04
    ssuellid wrote:
    No it does not. Its saying that some manufacturers of DVD players and disc have implemented the layer change badly.

    That's what I said.
  • UncleLou Moderator 18 Nov 2002 16:30:30 40,158 posts
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    No, it isn't.
  • sam_spade 18 Nov 2002 16:30:39 15,745 posts
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    A bad workman always blames his tools.
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 16:32:33 19,141 posts
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    The technology is fine its the interpretation of the specs and the implementation of the technology that has been the problem. Its not what you said.
  • Deleted user 18 November 2002 16:39:55
    ssuellid wrote:
    The technology is fine its the interpretation of the specs and the implementation of the technology that has been the problem. Its not what you said.

    No, that's the spec. The implementation is a technology as well.

    tech•nol•o•gy

    Pronunciation: (tek-nol'u-jE), —n.

    1. the branch of knowledge that deals with the creation and use of technical means and their interrelation with life, society, and the environment, drawing upon such subjects as industrial arts, engineering, applied science, and pure science.
    2. the terminology of an art, science, etc.; technical nomenclature.
    3. a technological process, invention, method, or the like.
    4. the sum of the ways in which social groups provide themselves with the material objects of their civilization.

    Edited by Feersum Boundah at 16:42:05 18-11-2002
  • sam_spade 18 Nov 2002 16:43:29 15,745 posts
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    Well the specification and the technology are absolutely fine then.

    It's the implementation of the two things that is failing, otherwise there wouldn't be split-second changes.

    The technology isn't crap, it's people not using it properly.
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 16:45:17 19,141 posts
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    The reason the layer change is cocked up is because of different interpretations of the specs - its that simple.

    Keep trolling FB. It keeps things interesting.
  • terminalterror 18 Nov 2002 16:45:32 18,931 posts
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    Feersum Boundah wrote:
    What it's basically saying is DVD technology is shite.

    Not shite exactly, but not as good as it should be. When was the last time you saw a big release on DVD that didn't have at least 2 discs? Even Amelie comes on 2 discs. Although partly because they are crammed with extras, a good thing, the fomat should have the capacity to fit it all in. They don't even support HDTV. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of DVD, but it is a flawed/outdated medium, which won't see a mainstream replacement for at least 10 years. Even in 5 years think how obselete it will be.

    edit: Apologies for partly repeating what was said in another thread.

    Edited by terminalterror at 16:46:32 18-11-2002
  • Deleted user 18 November 2002 16:47:20
    sam_spade wrote:
    The technology isn't crap, it's people not using it properly.

    I must admit a bit of speculative digging with my previous comment. But, I'm not entirely convinced that DVD technology as a whole is something to get too excited about, and the implementations do seem rather poor. Having a pause during layer changes strikes me as being very sloppy and shouldn't get past any half-baked QA department. That's what I really, really, hate about computers. Far too many people seem to excuse huge amounts of sloppyness because it's computers.
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 16:48:56 19,141 posts
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    DVD is the best that is available to the consumer at the moment. Of course its not perfect and it will be replaced in a few years and there is already a proposed sucessor.
  • gizmo 18 Nov 2002 16:51:22 2,100 posts
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    "3. a technological process, invention, method, or the like."

    That is THE most ambiguous statement I've seen used in backing up an argument!

    Covers anything from making a cup of tea to the space shuttle!, lol.
  • JabbaDaHut 18 Nov 2002 16:51:48 651 posts
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    ssuellid wrote:
    DVD is the best that is available to the consumer at the moment. Of course its not perfect and it will be replaced in a few years and there is already a proposed sucessor.
    Which is?? I'm just starting to buy DVDs - Fuck!
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 16:52:31 19,141 posts
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    The main reason there is a layer change on the disc is the amount of commentaries and other language tracks on the discs. A single audio track with the film would mean there are less layer changes.
  • Deleted user 18 November 2002 16:53:11
    ssuellid wrote:
    DVD is the best that is available to the consumer at the moment. Of course its not perfect and it will be replaced in a few years and there is already a proposed sucessor.

    Doesn't it want to make you scream? All this change and so little progress. Heck, re-writeable DVD's only just look as if they're going to become commonplace. When the medium changes again, and again, copy protection is going to make more than a few people angry at the thought that their entire library might have to be replaced. This is not good.
  • JabbaDaHut 18 Nov 2002 16:55:30 651 posts
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    Feersum Boundah wrote:
    ssuellid wrote:
    DVD is the best that is available to the consumer at the moment. Of course its not perfect and it will be replaced in a few years and there is already a proposed sucessor.

    Doesn't it want to make you scream? All this change and so little progress. Heck, re-writeable DVD's only just look as if they're going to become commonplace. When the medium changes again, and again, copy protection is going to make more than a few people angry at the thought that their entire library might have to be replaced. This is not good.
    Well it's not as if everyone isn't used to it by now, but no - NOT GOOD!
  • Killerbee 18 Nov 2002 16:57:37 5,015 posts
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    My prediction is it'll all go wireless - no need for tangible media, just download movies (much like we do with MP3s today) and send them - remotely - to be stored on a digital video recorder - a bit like TiVo, but good. :)
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 16:58:06 19,141 posts
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    Heres the proposed replacement: -

    http://www.ibluray.com/

    Its the same with all the electronic media formats, upgrade to a new device for better quality, upgrade your library, then start again.
  • sam_spade 18 Nov 2002 16:58:22 15,745 posts
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    The Starship Troopers and Goodfellas disc has no extra features but both are flippers. So, it's mainly the film that requires the multiple layers - the extras just take up the rest of the space.
  • terminalterror 18 Nov 2002 16:58:42 18,931 posts
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    Killerbee wrote:
    My prediction is it'll all go wireless - no need for tangible media, just download movies (much like we do with MP3s today) and send them - remotely - to be stored on a digital video recorder - a bit like TiVo, but good. :)

    and you end up paying EVERY time you watch anything, even taped films off TV
  • ssuellid 18 Nov 2002 16:59:28 19,141 posts
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    Starship Troopers was reissued as a non flipper. Be careful tho as some shops still stock the flipper.
  • Deleted user 18 November 2002 17:00:51
    gizmo wrote:
    "3. a technological process, invention, method, or the like."

    That is THE most ambiguous statement I've seen used in backing up an argument! Covers anything from making a cup of tea to the space shuttle!, lol.

    Just as vague as the technology word ssuelid decided to troll. Still, I'd like to know if there was anything in the DVD spec that made creating an implementation more difficult than it should be. It wouldn't be the first time something looked good on paper and hit a snag at manufacturing.

    ssuellid wrote:
    The reason the layer change is cocked up is because of different interpretations of the specs - its that simple. Keep trolling FB. It keeps things interesting.

    Nice try slick. :)
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