Final Fantasy VII Remake on PS4! Page 73

  • Psiloc 15 May 2020 09:32:56 5,533 posts
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    Incidentally I can't shake the feeling that you guys are doing something wrong if normal enemies are taking you so long to beat that you reduce the difficulty
  • Scimarad 15 May 2020 09:34:24 9,756 posts
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    Yeah, I feel the same way about Persona 5. I love the style of it and thought it was great for a while but by the end of that second Fortress I felt like I'd had enough. You can have too much of a good thing.

    With this I feel like I can play a chapter or two, not touch it for a few days and then really enjoy it when I pick it up again.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 15 May 2020 09:36:02 9,030 posts
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    I think part of my problem with FF7R is that I know the bulk of the story. I've played FF7's Midgar section probably a dozen times over the years. I know the big story beats.

    When FF7 remake is adding actually new story content - like the visit to Jessie's home, or the Shinra museum - I'm fine with that. But when it's the same old beats spaced out by big, rather dull dungeons, it starts to feel over-stretched. Plus it actually loses some of the original's sense of pace and urgency at times. The Sector 5 reactor infiltration, the return from Wall Market to the Sector 7 pillar and the climb up to the plate all felt like they had less clout to them in the remake, just because they're so long.
  • elstoof 15 May 2020 09:39:23 25,878 posts
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    Maybe I was expecting the worst at the ending after everyone losing their shit over it, I think people are just reading waaaay too much into it. Nothing meaningful got changed, just the main points of the game were expanded on. The whole point of the game is dealing with fate and changing your destiny
  • PazJohnMitch 15 May 2020 09:48:55 16,008 posts
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    Nothing meaningful got changed yet. The ending lets them change everything from now on..
  • SnackPlissken 15 May 2020 09:52:04 1,963 posts
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    Having beat 15 I still can't get used to the combat gameplay. Sometimes I can't be bothered with hacking/slashing so that's why I went with classic. But the AI has been poorly implemented. I'd rather it have been like the original where you can direct the attack to fill the ATB.
  • Psiloc 15 May 2020 09:52:15 5,533 posts
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    The way I see the ending is that if you're someone who has been clamouring for a remake for all these years, I can understand it being a bit of a kick in the teeth. If you've never been that fussed, or straight up thought that SE would butcher a remake, you'll probably not mind the ending or its implications. I think this might be why it was critically so well received, with journalists generally being normal people and not die hards like us.

    Frankly I think it's a bit of a miracle that modern SE got the tone as close to perfect as they did. It's far from the shit show it could have been.
  • SolidSCB 15 May 2020 10:04:31 12,781 posts
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    Yeah, again it's absolutely fine to like what they've done with the ending. It's a pure matter of opinion and it's one of those divisive things that will split the fanbase in half one way or another. No one is wrong about that.

    But the people saying it hasn't changed anything and handwaving what actually happened in that last hour, hour and a half really need to go back and watch it all again. It really, really couldn't be any more black and white.
  • Graxlar_v3 15 May 2020 10:33:17 10,233 posts
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    Psiloc wrote:

    Frankly I think it's a bit of a miracle that modern SE got the tone as close to perfect as they did. It's far from the shit show it could have been.
    I think we played different games... FF7 is not kingdom hearts
  • PierrePressure 15 May 2020 10:48:33 1,113 posts
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    I thought the battle system was the best it has been in a very long time.

    Now if they could just look at a Vagrant Story remake...
  • Ror 15 May 2020 11:31:10 20,241 posts
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    Psiloc wrote:
    Incidentally I can't shake the feeling that you guys are doing something wrong if normal enemies are taking you so long to beat that you reduce the difficulty
    I can only speak for myself, but I dropped the difficulty after skipping a load of sidequests, as the game seems to be balanced around having done them.

    I haven't finished yet - last thing I did was go through some portal, and then my PS4 pad died and I couldn't be arsed to plug it in - but I didn't actually find the wards in Shinra HQ all that bad. Hell, I'd probably say I liked HQ for the most part, and that it was Ch14 that was the absolute nadir for me. That was fucking dire.

    I don't like what they've done with Sephiroth in this game. At all. But any changes there were likely to be for the worse for me, as I think the way he's handled in the original is basically perfect. I did like seeing Zack, even if that part did seem to be completely out of place. And I liked him referencing one of my favourite pieces of FF music.

    Also, as an aside, if normal humans can fight like Rufus, why the fuck does Shinra need SOLDIERs :)

    Oh, and FWIW, I haven't played Persona 5 precisely because it's so long, and P4's dungeons made me hate myself, the world, and everything in it.

    elstoof wrote:
    The whole point of the game is dealing with fate and changing your destiny
    The original wasn't really about that, though. FFXIII was about that.

    Edited by Ror at 11:34:10 15-05-2020
  • Robospud 15 May 2020 12:24:07 129 posts
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    Graxlar_v3 wrote:
    Psiloc wrote:

    Frankly I think it's a bit of a miracle that modern SE got the tone as close to perfect as they did. It's far from the shit show it could have been.
    I think we played different games... FF7 is not kingdom hearts
    Agree with this. This part of FF7 was very grounded in the original. In the Midgar portion of the game there is natural resource exploitation, corporate greed, poverty, sex worker exploitation, propaganda, rebellion with innocent people as collateral damage. Obviously the fantasy elements open up as the game goes on and you find out more about the lifestream etc but there's still a consistency to it in many ways, it feels like a grounded place where physics and the nature of reality are a bit different to our world, but it is what it is and there are ordinary people living in it.

    There's a bit in the Kalm flashback when you go into a Mako cave and Cloud says something about how mysterious the magic of materia is and Sephiroth laughs at him for not understanding the mechanics of it. You could liken it to pre-industrial people seeing a lightbulb turn on for the first time - in fact that sort of thing is referenced in some of the smaller towns where minor NPCs talk about how basic life was before Shinra and Mako brought electricity to them.

    Obviously the game builds up to much more than that over time as Sephiroth becomes the big player and you uncover more about the ancients etc, but the stream of fantasy babble nonsense that occurred at the end of the remake, and the way the characters just didn't bat an eyelid and dived in headfirst without questioning, was just way outside the tone of FFVII to me. I don't particularly mind if they diverge from the original, but the way they did it was very poorly handled in my opinion and the comparison to Kingdom Hearts is a good one, which is a game I enjoy for the Disney bits and loses me when they go into the convoluted fantasy nonsense.
  • elstoof 15 May 2020 12:37:12 25,878 posts
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    Ror wrote:

    elstoof wrote:
    The whole point of the game is dealing with fate and changing your destiny
    The original wasn't really about that, though. FFXIII was about that.
    It was absolutely about that. 8 was also about that. So was 9. Cloud was just another failed swphiroth clone, he was never supposed to kill him. He was supposed to go to the reunion with the rest of them. Aeris knew she was fated to die at the city of the ancients. Sephiroth was destined to rule the new planet alongside jenova. It was about other things, sure, but that was the main impulse

    Edited by elstoof at 12:37:30 15-05-2020
  • elstoof 15 May 2020 12:38:38 25,878 posts
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    PazJohnMitch wrote:
    Nothing meaningful got changed yet. The ending lets them change everything from now on..
    The beginning let them change everything. Starting the remake project let them do that. Retelling a story kind of allows that by the author at any stage, thatís kind of the point of doing it

    Edited by elstoof at 12:38:55 15-05-2020
  • elstoof 15 May 2020 12:43:35 25,878 posts
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    Scimarad wrote:
    Yeah, I feel the same way about Persona 5. I love the style of it and thought it was great for a while but by the end of that second Fortress I felt like I'd had enough. You can have too much of a good thing.
    As much as I love Persona m, Iíd probably enjoy them more if they dropped the rpg elements and just went full schoolgirl tinder sim at a swift 30 hour playtime
  • Graxlar_v3 15 May 2020 12:51:39 10,233 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    PazJohnMitch wrote:
    Nothing meaningful got changed yet. The ending lets them change everything from now on..
    The beginning let them change everything. Starting the remake project let them do that. Retelling a story kind of allows that by the author at any stage, thatís kind of the point of doing it
    Making what is advertised as Ff7 remake, does not give you free reign to change everything - unless of course you are square ENIX apparently
  • SnackPlissken 15 May 2020 12:59:17 1,963 posts
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    Is The Thing not a remake of The Thing From Another World and is that not based on the book Who Goes There?. My point I'm making is that every bit of media has changes. Whether you agree or not that's what happens. Just learn to live with it.
  • Ror 15 May 2020 13:01:15 20,241 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    Ror wrote:

    elstoof wrote:
    The whole point of the game is dealing with fate and changing your destiny
    The original wasn't really about that, though. FFXIII was about that.
    It was absolutely about that. 8 was also about that. So was 9. Cloud was just another failed swphiroth clone, he was never supposed to kill him. He was supposed to go to the reunion with the rest of them. Aeris knew she was fated to die at the city of the ancients. Sephiroth was destined to rule the new planet alongside jenova. It was about other things, sure, but that was the main impulse
    It's more about accepting yourself. Cloud spends the entire game thinking he's someone else, because he failed at the one thing he ever wanted to do (become a SOLDIER). That's nothing to do with fate, and everything to do with accepting your flaws and failures and moving forward.

    Aeris knew she had to go to the City of the Ancients to summon Holy, and she knew it'd be dangerous. I don't remember there being anything specific that suggested she knew she would die, but it's been a while so I won't argue that point too much. I only have vague recollections of the vision/chat she has with Cloud in the forest.

    Sephiroth wasn't fated to do anything. He was basically an experiment with delusions of grandeur, and Jenova was an extraterrestrial being - no destiny there, only the need to consume and replicate.

    I can see the argument for VIII (because of all the time nonsense) and IX (because Zidane was created for a specific purpose), but not really for VII. And it is the driving theme of XIII.

    elstoof wrote:
    As much as I love Persona m, Iíd probably enjoy them more if they dropped the rpg elements and just went full schoolgirl tinder sim at a swift 30 hour playtime
    I've said this before, but I'd much prefer the Persona games if they were visual novels.

    Edited by Ror at 13:03:01 15-05-2020
  • elstoof 15 May 2020 13:17:00 25,878 posts
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    Ror wrote:

    Sephiroth wasn't fated to do anything. He was basically an experiment with delusions of grandeur, and Jenova was an extraterrestrial being - no destiny there, only the need to consume and replicate.
    He believed it was his destiny - he wouldnít shut up about it - and he set about creating it. Cloudís journey was was the counterpoint, he wasnít destined for anything until fate got involved
  • SolidSCB 15 May 2020 13:23:32 12,781 posts
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    There's a difference between changing things along the path, and changing the path entirely. The ending of FFVIIR was 100%, without question the latter so people are within their rights to not be happy when it literally says "Remake" on the front of the box and was never advertised or marketed as anything else.

    and no, no one was expecting the mako reactor and towns to still be a handful of small screens and everything to be completely identical and in the absolute correct place, but there's a world of difference between that and fundamentally changing what the entire game was about in the first place with an hour to go.
  • Steve-Perry 15 May 2020 13:23:48 1,517 posts
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    7 was never about escaping fate or destiny to me. As someone said, 13 is all about that. And it's sequels. I'm on Lightning Returns again at the minute and Hope and Lightning don't shut up about it. I can't remember comparable speeches or themes dictating the majority of FF7 personally.

    To me it was a story of discovering yourself. Cloud doesn't know who he is or what he's doing and he works it out by the end.

    I think that's why it resonated with so many teenagers playing it at the time because that's basically adolescence.

    Edited by Steve-Perry at 13:24:01 15-05-2020
  • Ror 15 May 2020 13:26:42 20,241 posts
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    To my mind, if fighting fate/destiny is to be a core theme, it needs to be fully defined: "this is what will inevitably happen, this is your place in it. Defy it if you dare."

    Someone doing stuff doesn't qualify, for me.

    It works as a core theme for FFXIII, because Cocoon was created with the intention of being sacrificed, and using human pawns to do it. Nothing in FFVII is predefined in that sense. It's some people coming together to get over themselves and stop a bad dude.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 15 May 2020 13:34:48 9,030 posts
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    @Ror I've not finished yet (left it last night after the Swordipede fight), but what I've taken from the game so far is that it's basically a New Game+. These characters have been through these events before - hence the "flash forwards" (e.g. to Aerith's death) and the meta-narrative the remake has layered on top of FF7's plot is about breaking out of the cycle of the story.

    I actually quite like that side of the remake. The original is such a huge part of the general gaming consciousness that I found layering the story with a dollop of "you already know how this goes, but perhaps it can be changed" is quite clever. Having the characters themselves subconsciously aware of how events play out puts them in a similar position to the player.

    Maybe something in the last few hours will undermine my take on it, of course.
  • PierrePressure 15 May 2020 13:47:13 1,113 posts
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    @Rogueywon, I also loved the new take and potential ramifications this may have for future installments.

    I think perhaps it just suffers with the way it leads up to these revelations in the final battle(s).
  • the_milkybar_kid 15 May 2020 13:49:10 8,274 posts
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    Dipping in and out of this thread, but started this week and got up to the sector 5 reactor / train lines. I quite like all the side tracks and expansions. Just add to the main story nicely.

    The Jessie stuff, doing a bit of work with with Tifa, just makes the world feel more loved in.

    Add to that, the soundtrack and sound que's are fucking outstanding.
  • Ror 15 May 2020 13:49:43 20,241 posts
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    @Rogueywon Yeah, that's basically been my interpretation since those flash forwards you mentioned, and I'm not particularly opposed to it - as I said in here a while back, I'd already told myself to expect a reimagining, rather than a straight-up remake.

    I don't like some of the changes, but I'm not mad about them existing in principal (pending the conclusion, of course, as I've not yet finished myself). It does seem to have shifted the main theme of the game though, which I'm less enthused about.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 15 May 2020 13:59:32 9,030 posts
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    @Ror Let's face it, though... masterpiece thought it absolutely was, the original FF7 is not the most thematically consistent game. It starts out with an ecological message, but then that gets diluted and it becomes more about memory/identity and then basically says "fuck it" and ends with a big, spectacular battle. By contrast, FF10 and FF13 (whatever the latter's faults) were much more consistent in their tone and themes.

    But the thing with FF7 is that, a couple of decades after it launched, everybody basically knows the story and lots of people put many, many hours into trying to save Aerith.

    I'm actually quite up for a remake that takes the plot of the original as read (and my word, isn't the remake liberal about throwing in the really early hints that Cloud isn't who he says he is and other major plot twists from later in the original) but leaves open the prospect that the most iconic plot moment from the original might not be inevitable.
  • Ror 15 May 2020 14:31:10 20,241 posts
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    @Rogueywon I actually think the themes are reasonably consistent, as they intertwine a fair bit. The core themes, as I see them, are environmentalism, identity, and death/loss. The Lifestream binds environmentalism and death/loss together, as every living thing that dies returns to the Lifestream, which Shinra then extracts and uses as an energy source. Death/loss ties into identity as every character is defined by their loss; Cloud lost his home, his family, his dream, Zack. Tifa, the same. Barret lost his arm, his town, and his best friend, Yuffie is all about the lost glory of Wutai, Red lost his people and Seto, Vincent lost Lucrezia and some of his humanity, etc. Hell, even Cait Sith has lost something - more specifically Reeve, who really cared about Midgar and its people, effectively loses any semblance of control over the city when the plate is dropped and President Shinra tells him they won't be rebuilding.

    Finally, identity is tied to the environmentalist theme with the Lifestream effectively being the living memory of the planet (Aeris even manages to talk with some of those recently deceased when she enters the Lifestream, albeit in supplemental material), and it's the place where Cloud is finally able to rebuild his shattered psyche.

    I agree with the point that we all know FFVII inside out, and so playing with expectations a bit might be interesting. But that's a double-edged sword; I've said before in this thread that I'd probably enjoy this more had I never played the original, because I'm always going to be comparing the new to the old.

    Also, the remake is definitely a bit more forward with Cloud's identity (Hojo even basically says he's not a SOLDIER), but there was still plenty to hint at that even in the opening hours of the original. It's just that we had no idea what it was referencing when we first played it all those years ago.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 15 May 2020 14:44:10 9,030 posts
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    @Ror Just on the point about enjoying this one more if you hadn't played the original... I'm not 100% sure that would hold true for me.

    I think there's a lot in this one that actually relies on the player knowing the original. Hell, they dump Sephiroth into the first hour or so, in a way that's going to mean absolutely nothing to first-timers.

    I've taken to thinking of this as a sequel as much as a remake (albeit an odd kind of sequel).
  • Ror 15 May 2020 14:46:17 20,241 posts
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    @Rogueywon Yeah, that's true. Another reason I don't really like what they've done with Sephiroth in this one.

    Generally though, I mean in the sense that I wouldn't be constantly thinking, "this didn't happen in the original, this was done differently, this bit feels like padding because I feel I should be at x story moment now."
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