| Mates wife is from some hill tribe North Thailand and she reckons the Thais are exceptionally rascist towards her as she is darker skinned. |
shooting in US School - GMTV this morning • Page 3
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ssuellid 19,142 posts
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Registered 20 years ago -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
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Registered 20 years agoI think you there’s a tendency to discount the effect of games because if it wasn’t them sending people off the rails it would be films, music, books, etc. this conveniently ignores the one major huge massive fundamental difference between games and other media – interactivity.
When you read a book or watch a film you are passively observing the actions of characters. In games you are the character. A big difference and one that, when discussing the actions of disturbed people, should not be so casually dismissed. Games remove an extra layer of distinction between what fantasies a person may have a reality. You could say the remove the last barrier in their trip from something that happens exclusively in the imagination to something that is acted out in the real world.
Lumping games in with film and books is ironic because it is somewhat similar to the actions of the news media, twisting something to suit their own agenda, even if to do so they must ignore some glaringly obvious issues. -
ruttyboy 7,950 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 18 years agoMr Sleep wrote:
Hey, I thought my behaviour wasn't too bad on Sunday!
He should have come to live in London, surely the most multicultural society in the world and learned that the real people to worry about are white
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Are you playing devils advocate, Khani? .gif)
Interestingly the games always cited are largely faceless and characterless games such as Doom and GTA3. So I guess I can see your point regarding the interactivity.
I have a few issues though, I have never and am very unlikely to see anything in any other media that comes close to someone murdering and cutting up children to make them into a gestalt perfect child with wings (See: LA Confidential) in any other media. That also speaks directly to my imagination, I automatically see that in my mind. So, with a bit of imagination I can conjure up something like that, surely that could spark some form of murderous feelings or some kind of weird psychosis in me was I that way inclined. You do cover that but I think you are dismissing quite how effective the imagination is, certainly better than seeing or interacting with a game designers world.
Every form of entertainment is interactive, you get involved in the tension of a horror movie as much as you do in a survival horror game or the like. The distinction of these forms is moot imho. If they weren't interactive and you didn't get involved with the plot and characters then what would be the point?
I would also make the distinction, as I did earlier, between character driven games such as Zelda and games with no obvious charasmatic speaking player, such as the aformentioned GTA 3.
Edited by Mr Sleep at 13:36:43 22-03-2005 -
ruttyboy wrote:
lol!
Hey, I thought my behaviour wasn't too bad on Sunday! -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
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Registered 20 years agoEven when you are psychologically and physiologically affected by a movie I think it’s a bit of a stretch to call it an interactive experience. The media affects you, but you have no influence over it other then the volume or by switching it off.
Games allow you to interact with the virtual world and decide what will happen to the people in that world. For those so inclined, I can see a linear progression from fantasising about killing people, to watching films where people are killed, to playing a game where you kill fake people to slotting home a magazine and killing some real people. The only step I can see that can be inserted into that chain is paintball.
We gamers have a tendency to absolve our hobby of blame with to much haste. Just like any group of people, we will defend our turf to the bitter end, even if that involves making some intellectual and perceptive compromises. -
Freek 7,682 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 18 years agoKhanivor wrote:
Even when you are psychologically and physiologically affected by a movie I think it’s a bit of a stretch to call it an interactive experience.
The goal of pretty much every movie or book for that matter is too make you part that world. To make you feel as though you are actaully there.
The camera angles, the use of sound and effects. The opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan, for example, was so realistic and well filmed it gave veterans flash backs.
People read books and forget all about time and place, you suddenly notice it's dawn and you were reading all through the night.
It's what all our entertianment is geared towards: escapism.
Oh but now games are suddenly so different becuase you push a few buttons, buttons turned you into a homicidal maniac.
Edited by Freek at 13:53:43 22-03-2005 -
Khanivor wrote:
Of course you do, you know that tension that builds up in a horror movie, that's you assuming something is going to happen, that's you getting involved in the plot, the story and the characters. It's all about interaction, horror movies rely on you making assumptions, they may suggest them to you but if you don't start wondering what's going to happen next then the whole experience is pointless. Althoug I figure this is a crucial point we will disagree on
Even when you are psychologically and physiologically affected by a movie I think it’s a bit of a stretch to call it an interactive experience. The media affects you, but you have no influence over it other then the volume or by switching it off.
Games allow you to interact with the virtual world and decide what will happen to the people in that world. For those so inclined, I can see a linear progression from fantasising about killing people, to watching films where people are killed, to playing a game where you kill fake people to slotting home a magazine and killing some real people. The only step I can see that can be inserted into that chain is paintball.
Again I guess it depends on the game, very few games let you be in much a sandbox mode, it's mostly just following a set linear path towards a goal. It does indeed depend on the game though. I've always found games relieve stress very well as opposed to building it up.
We gamers have a tendency to absolve our hobby of blame with to much haste. Just like any group of people, we will defend our turf to the bitter end, even if that involves making some intellectual and perceptive compromises.
Perhaps. I have always considered the argument about video nasties etc to be somewhat vacuous and I think it applies to video games as well, the connection between people killing each other because of playing games is always spurious imo. Maybe I'm just being small minded and overly defensive but I don't think so. -
Shivoa 6,314 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 20 years agoKhanivor wrote:
When I fell through the floor, when I found the level wasn't endless, when I pressed a blue button with X written on it to reload rather than manipulating a weapon, when I tried to actually talk to a character and not follow a limited preset dialogue. This is where interactivity did not mean the abiility to play out real life in a virtual world.
Games allow you to interact with the virtual world and decide what will happen to the people in that world. For those so inclined, I can see a linear progression from fantasising about killing people, to watching films where people are killed, to playing a game where you kill fake people to slotting home a magazine and killing some real people. The only step I can see that can be inserted into that chain is paintball.
Yes, you can play endless diversions in a lot of games but the actual plot, the progression is, almost always now, something with an end. Killed all the badies in a level and you have to go to the next level to get any more of that gameplay out of the game. The added interactivity of games does not let you forfill your desires in a virtual reality yet.
Yes, games are more interactive than movies but with a DVD I can slowmo replay over and over one horrific event to my hearts content, isn't the configuring of the DVD player to do that interaction that you'd find disturbing in an individual? Should we get rid of the ability to play back a seciton of film repeatedly due to this or actually go to the cause of the problem, not the symptoms. -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
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Registered 20 years agoIf you are mentally imbalanced and harbour fantasies of revenge, what media will give you the opportunity to visualise your foes onscreen and pump them repeatedly full of bullets then slice them with a knife?
Films are not interactive. they have an effect on you, but even if the viewer were a vegetable and had no experience form watching the film it would still be exactly the same thing on the screen for them as for every other person in the cinema. Only inside the brain does any sort exchange take place. With a game you decide what happens. You decide to move forward, you decide to use a shotgun rather then a pistol. A game empowers its player with the tools to change the outcome of that game. The outcome of a film, book or song cannot be altered by the consumer, (unless you want to get pedantic and mention editing packages etc)
Now of course there are very few games which allow you free reign to do as you see fit. So it’s not without reason that GTA is targeted so frequently by those who wish to absolve society of any guilt in the latest outrage. I’m not saying there is a casual link between games and nutters going nuts, but there’s more of a link then most of us gamers are willing to countenance. There’s a danger that we will entrench our views to the point that we become just as dogmatic as those who seek to abolish our hobby. -
Khanivor wrote:
Again I think this could apply to any movie where lots of people get shot. I don't necessarily see the distinction and as I said above it's not something I am going to agree with you on so, meh
If you are mentally imbalanced and harbour fantasies of revenge, what media will give you the opportunity to visualise your foes onscreen and pump them repeatedly full of bullets then slice them with a knife?
Films are not interactive. they have an effect on you, but even if the viewer were a vegetable and had no experience form watching the film it would still be exactly the same thing on the screen for them as for every other person in the cinema. Only inside the brain does any sort exchange take place.
You're assuming a lot about mental imbalance and how it effects concious thought, I don't know but then I'd hazard a guess that you don't really know that much about mental illness either.
I’m not saying there is a casual link between games and nutters going nuts, but there’s more of a link then most of us gamers are willing to countenance. There’s a danger that we will entrench our views to the point that we become just as dogmatic as those who seek to abolish our hobby.
I see your point but I have the same opinion about games as I do film or books, I'm not entrenched so much as I disagree with your perception of interactivity. -
duncan wrote:
I can understand that to some degree, I've always been a little intolerant of people who wade into a country and decide to do things their way with no concern for the country they're in. There are obviously degrees of this and the fact that you've made an effort and they've responded is quite impressive. I guess you could make a comparison to if someone from Thai came over here and wasn't willing to speak English or interact with our society.
It's just not a culture that accepts foreigners.... I now find myself not worrying whether I maybe an alcholic because drinking is frowned upon for a teacher and I can get by and exchange social pleasantaries in Thai.... once they see these kind of commitments to their culture things do change. -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
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Registered 20 years agoMr Sleep wrote:
I see your point but I have the same opinion about games as I do film or books, I'm not entrenched so much as I disagree with your perception of interactivity.
Interact is a verb, a doing word. If you are not actively doing anything other then existing while your brain fires of neurons and adjusts its chemical composition then you are not interacting.
Remember the brief appearance of interactive movies. If other movies were interactive then why the distinction?
Surely you can agree that there's a difference between looking at a picture of someone you hate and putting that picture on the wall and throwing darts into its eyes. That's the kind of difference I'm on about.
I don’t know much about mental illness, but I can tell you all about the deleterious affect of playing MMORPGs on someone with a mental illness. Although that’s a somewhat different topic as my friend never went off on a rampage.
Edited by Khanivor at 14:39:38 22-03-2005 -
Khanivor wrote:
Semantics
Interact is a verb, a doing word. If you are not actively doing anything other then existing while your brain fires of neurons and adjusts its chemical composition then you are not interacting.
Remember the brief appearance of interactive movies. If other movies were interactive then why the distinction?
I figure our argument is about the perception of the media in discussion, it's not something that's going to change in conversation I'm afraid, I see your point I just don't really agree. -
duncan, That is absolutely brilliant, I wouldn't have known something like that but it's definitely the kind of information that's important if you're travelling. I guess there are so many quirks like that in our society that i just take for granted.
Oh and Blair would shaft you good -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
Seen 1 week ago
Registered 20 years agoIt is semantics but movies books and TV are generally considered to be passive forms of entertainment. Gmaes are interactive.
Put it this way, there's only one type of film which has left me with a sore wrist. -
Salaman 24,162 posts
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Registered 17 years agoDebbie does Dallas? -
tonynibbles 2,247 posts
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Registered 17 years agodeepmenace wrote:
where is brass eye when you need it most?
SO TRUE. -
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