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Um, doesn't Canada have controlled immigration? Also, to rely purely on immiration to plug pension gaps is not exactly a long term solution. We need systems that do not require a constant flow of people going into work that is perpetualy greater then those leaving work. Unless you want a world with 20 billion people living on it sometime soon. A fact which may have slightly more serious implications then pension shortfalls. I have no idea what sort ofd system wil repalce the current model, but I imagine it might have soemthing to do with investing in the future rather then dropping cash all over the place for immediate political effect. |
Vote Guns - Vote BNP • Page 2
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Khanivor 44,800 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 20 years ago -
I can understand people wanting to escape war and death, but why do they go to all the effort of coming to the UK when they have to go thru about 10 other countrys in order to get here.
because we're a push over, they'll get benefits without having to work and can cry human rights if they dont get what they want. we need to be a bit more strict and kick the useless ones back out, we have enuf useless people on benefits how it is. -
duncan wrote:
richispsycho wrote:
the only reason i can think of that they'd bother with all that is that english is probably the only european language that they know at all.
The fact is the people do trek across several rich countries Italy, France, Germany, ..., to get to us.
They are here for the free cheques. When there asylum application fails do the leave. Some do. I bet you alot don't. These people then often to resort to crime and I don't mean working illegally. I mean theft and drug dealing.
What's wrong with saying no to these people?
also ever noticed where the french keep their asylum seekers... that's right just by calais... handy for them that
care to back those statements up with figures so I can take your money off you.... bet you can't... your just being racist.
most of them end up working as virtual slaves for 'british organised crime' for well below the minimum wage and 0 safety considerations.... for such wonderful british institutions as Tescos.
idiot.. go vote for the SEA. Why teh fuck should i provide numbers for you when our own Prime Minster cant? And ifs its such a non issue whys it one of hte largest concerns for all parties thats polling at the moment for your vote?
the bottom line is and please check it out if you dare, if you seek Aslyum you MUST declare it in the 1st safe country you enter into. The UK being an island has the luxury of being behind at least 4 SAFE coutries on any side for ppl to claim aslyum.
They dont come here you idiot cos they can speak english, MOST OF EUROPE CAN ALSO SPEAK ENGLISH.
i anint been racist im being real. Dosent take a genius to work out whats happening although in your case..
sheepfish.. you fuck off. -
lol.. what a heated issue. -
Sid-Nice 15,848 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 18 years agoThere's a lot more people leave the UK through emigration, than enter through immigration. During the 50's and 60's Blacks and Indians were encouraged to come to their Mother Land, for a better standard of life??? Well it was to do the jobs that the whites wouldn't do. Since Enoch Powell's " Rivers of Blood " Speech, many rightwing Torries have blamed immigration for high unemployment, poverty and crime. Yet the NE of England had the highest unemployment, yet had the lowest population of Blacks and Indians. Trying to say that the Tory Party aren't racist is a joke, well they aren't if you've got money, they let any cunt buy shares when they sold off all of the UK's profitable Nationalised companies.
Edited by Sid Nice at 14:05:25 24-04-2005 -
minkyqueen 1,880 posts
Seen 10 years ago
Registered 18 years agoI asked my cousin why he wants to vote Tory. He said he doesn't like the way immigrants live over here. He works as a French polisher, so sees a lot of construction work. About 90% of the construction workers are immigrants working cash in hand illegally, sending their money to their family back home and living on bare minimum in the UK, so none of the money is being put into our economy that they're happy to take wages from.
While I am the last person to ever vote conservative, I found his story interesting. -
richispsycho 722 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 17 years agoduncan wrote:
care to back those statements up with figures so I can take your money off you.... bet you can't...
I never said most asylum seekers resort to crime. I said some.
Asylum Seekers Crime And Google
That link gives a few old articles from papers which generally says some asylum seekers are involved in organised crime. But mostly its still young white males.
Usually the people working for tesco's aren't Asylum seekers. They are probably immigrants or students. Who do the jobs no one else does. Otherwise Tesco would be clamped down on pretty quick.
duncan wrote:
your just being racist.
Tell me when I mentioned race? When? Did I say any race whatsover. NO.
How is that racist then? Tell me. Otherwise your being ageist or someother random crap.
You can call me names all you want. You either control immigration or immigration controls you... -
richispsycho 722 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 17 years ago -
richispsycho 722 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 17 years ago -
bainbrge 1,687 posts
Seen 5 months ago
Registered 19 years agominkyqueen wrote:
I asked my cousin why he wants to vote Tory. He said he doesn't like the way immigrants live over here. He works as a French polisher, so sees a lot of construction work. About 90% of the construction workers are immigrants working cash in hand illegally, sending their money to their family back home and living on bare minimum in the UK, so none of the money is being put into our economy that they're happy to take wages from.
While I am the last person to ever vote conservative, I found his story interesting.
erm, they are working cash in hand illegally because they aren't allowed to work legally. The state forbids them from paying taxes, and British employers are morally bankrupt enough to employ ill-trained immigrants without proper workers rights, but your cousin has managed to make it all their fault? -
minkyqueen 1,880 posts
Seen 10 years ago
Registered 18 years agobainbrge wrote:
minkyqueen wrote:
I asked my cousin why he wants to vote Tory. He said he doesn't like the way immigrants live over here. He works as a French polisher, so sees a lot of construction work. About 90% of the construction workers are immigrants working cash in hand illegally, sending their money to their family back home and living on bare minimum in the UK, so none of the money is being put into our economy that they're happy to take wages from.
While I am the last person to ever vote conservative, I found his story interesting.
erm, they are working cash in hand illegally because they aren't allowed to work legally. The state forbids them from paying taxes, and British employers are morally bankrupt enough to employ ill-trained immigrants without proper workers rights, but your cousin has managed to make it all their fault?
He said he doesn't like the way they live over here. Don't go jumping to conclusions and making my point seem more negative than it was intended, thanks!
Are you qualified to explain asylum laws? I don't mean this in a sarcastic way - I am genuinely interested to find someone who actually knows what the law says, because people's interpretations of them vary greatly. -
richispsycho 722 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 17 years agoUnfortunately for you Duncan it seems I read your posts yet you don't read mine.
duncan wrote:
lol... so a google search with nothing useful eh?
The google search supported my arguement. Some aslyum seekers resort to crime.
oh and by the way how many students died in this relatively recent situation... none.
How many immigrants died in that relatively recent situation? Answer 19. I said students and immigrants. I think the those unfortunate souls where legal immigrants.
I should also point out that I don't know where you got the above article from. But it's from a communist site.
If you want a system thats truly abused Communism is a good way to go.
duncan wrote:
seriously get a clue... your exactly the fodder that the tories and Rupert Murdoch lap up.
either a)
spend the rst of your life worrying about your mortgage and getting a better car.
or b)
go out see the world and actually do something useful with your life.
I won't vote for the Tories and I've probably never brought a Rupert Murdoch paper. However I think Khani said a good point earlier.
Surely it would be better to stop the reasons for Asylum seekers rather than taking them all in.
EDIT: I have found a way we could settle this discussion. Wanna battle in Rome Total War? Just read you quite like it.
I only recently got it so I could use tips. (i know this is off topic).
Edited by richispsycho at 17:10:44 24-04-2005 -
sheepfish 1,168 posts
Registered 19 years agoEvilGenius wrote:
sheepfish.. you fuck off.
Brilliant :-D
I love when 15 year old bigots (or thick adults, you can't tell on a forum) get all uppity.
Look, the rich countries of the world have an obligation to take asylum seekers. You cannot expect Germany, for example, to take evry single asylum seeker, just becaue of its geographical position. It's just obvious. Otherwise they will close their borders to all and that will just open an enormous international can of worms. We do live on an island and as Otto said, we need more young workers. Demographics are the single biggest threat to our quality of life over the next 50 years.
minkyqueen, I work in the construction industry and have never seen any illegal immigrants working. I have however seen a huge proportion of British born workers who are the laziest cunts you ever did wish to see. I'm sure there are people here working illegally. So fucking what? They are not registered to work, so they get no benefits, no NHS treatment, no housing, nothing, fuck all. I think they should be celebrated and given immediate citizenship. We should reward endeavor, whether people were born here or not. I'll say it again, it's the lazy bastard British we should be deporting, they add nothing and take a lot away, unlike many immigrants who need to work to survive. -
Duncan you are an idiot. Think about it. For gods sake. Are you really that nieve?
Why should i provide you with facts and figures. I watched Blair squirm the other night on Paxman. He couldnt give a figure so how the fuck am i going to if he cant??
The bottom line is like it or lump it, and this isnt about immigration, failed asylum seekers are here ripping us off.
In the same way ppl thousands are ripping off benefits but i suppose youll want figures on that too.
I may be a sociopath acorrding to you ( /rolls eyes ) but your just plain thick mate.
Wise up. -
sheepfish wrote:
EvilGenius wrote:
sheepfish.. you fuck off.
minkyqueen, I work in the construction industry and have never seen any illegal immigrants working.
Quality statement!!!! lmfao. -
Nobby 128 posts
Registered 20 years agoMoist wrote:
The BNP don't do marches, haven't for about five years, it'll have been the National Front.
It was definately a BNP organised march, 'cos my mate asked thep police who were their about it.
I doubt the banners were official though. -
minkyqueen 1,880 posts
Seen 10 years ago
Registered 18 years agoAs much as I would like to discuss this topic, I always find it tiring when people just want to argue with each other and throw labels around. I'm not just refering to forums, chatting about immigration to people really gets their backs up, and no one seems to make much sense.
Probably because immigration should be dealth with on a case-by-case basis, but people seem more interested in taking sides.
Edited by minkyqueen at 18:35:37 24-04-2005 -
Moist 390 posts
Seen 8 years ago
Registered 17 years agoNobby wrote:
The BNP don't do marches, haven't for about five years, it'll have been the National Front.
The Police told us it was the BNP, but I wasn't going to stick around and check. -
sheepfish 1,168 posts
Registered 19 years agoEvilGenius wrote:
The bottom line is like it or lump it, and this isnt about immigration, failed asylum seekers are here ripping us off.
Yes, this is the bottom line. It's the cause of all this whole stupid argument.
Please tell me how failed asylum seekers are 'ripping us off', please tell me your 'bottom line' isn't just complete bollocks.
Come on, it's your 'bottom line', it's what this is all about. How are failed asylum seekers ripping us off?
Edited by sheepfish at 19:40:32 24-04-2005 -
It always saddens me when people resort to "soft touch", "stealing our jobs" and various other fatuous 'reasons'.
They're not entitled to full benefits for a start, so it's hardly a soft touch.
They come over here, get a job. They pay taxes.
There you go.
If people employ them illegally then prosecute those at fault, it's hardly the asylum seeker's fault if they only want to pay their way but their employer wants to take advantage of them, is it?
My father-in-law thinks like this. It's maddening. Just last week he was complaining that this country should have stopped immigration in the 1960s and then "things would be far better in this country"
...
Not infact fucked up because we needed the workers, then? Hmm?
But then disection of the true situation never seems to matter, like Howard's crusade against 'Gypsies' using land illegally. Funny how people who agree don't tend to know that Howard revoked the requirement for councils to provide land for them to park on, thus creating the situation. Clever.
A debate on these topics would be interesting and expand everyone's experience. But sadly that's not what we get.EvilGenius wrote:
/Lumps it
The bottom line is like it or lump it, and this isnt about immigration, failed asylum seekers are here ripping us off.
How, exactly?
If they're 'failed' they can't claim benefit or otherwise gain from the state. You have to be registered (and therefore findable / deportable) to be able to claim anything.
Edited by Retroid at 19:44:44 24-04-2005 -
Retroid, as much as i respect you - having been a civil servant in the asylum claims department for just over a year i have to correct you. normally i just flame in these threads for a joke (see earlier post) and dont get involved, but i might as well tell you all the facts and then leave you to make up your own judgements from that.
the UK government wont let anybody starve to death in it streets, even if they failed the claim for asylum. Until the government arranges deportation or they leave of their own accord (sic) they still get the very minimum of benefits. human rights.
the amount of money they get depends, but most know how to play the system and as a result get benefits for every single thing they can. and having dealth with the claims on a day to day basis it's scary - they know the system inside and out and most of the claims are identical!
councils get a quota, so for every illegal immigrant getting money, they have to reject 'lesser' claims from people who i'd often consider more worthy of the money. this isnt admitted by the government, all they can say is that you must 'take the quota into account before approving non-life threatening cases' - which basically means screw the honest citizen over for somebody playing the system.
an old couple might not get money for a fridge, and have to go out shopping everyday because the quota is so low. somebody will be rejected travel costs to visit his wife in hospital with a terminal illness - and i can tell you why the quota is normally so low.
they (illegal immigrants) get benefits to cover food costs, and to help towards rent or housing if they have a house already (enough to stop them being evicted so long as its not ott). if they have children (or others who are 'dependants') they'll get benefits for them, and if they have a disability then they'll get put on the housing register.
almost all the cases are identical, as if they've been told exactly how to abuse the system.
the children always have ashma so they get carpets paid for, the kids will always wet the bed so they can keep claiming for new beds, the parents always need a fridge to store medication (we cannot force them to disclose medical information without a lot of paperwork which we are not staffed for).
they dont have bank accounts, and claim via giro's - they can then 'lose' the cash on a regular basis and unless we can prove they spent the money (almost impossible) they end up getting a surplus payment (which is normally just the amount of money to cover food costs, not the housing etc).
it's hard not to get worked up, as having to accept the obviously bogus claims and turn down honest folk made me feel sick. the worse thing is because they have been turned down for immigration they cannot even get a job even if they wanted to.
we HAVE to kick them out sooner and turn around claims faster, its a joke. -
Cheers for the explanations. I so very rarely see anything to back things up, so it's appreciated Pirotic wrote:
You see, I do agree with that.
We HAVE to kick them out sooner and turn around claims faster, its a joke.
By far my main problem with all of this is that even though the system sucks arse, people in general blame the applicants.
That's the racism which gets my goat, the short-sightedness.
Things need to be fixed, verified and sped up. A fair system.
The crapness of british bureaucracy should be the topic.
Edited by Retroid at 21:53:46 24-04-2005 -
spot on, glad i could help.
people dont seem to realise that you get assholes from every race and every country, the best we can do is make sure these assholes from abroad who are trying to play our system are caught out and kicked out as soon as possible.
its not just the honest UK citizen they screw over, but also real asylum seekers who've had family murdered, house burnt down and will be killed on sight should they return to where they used to live.
You get great, smart, hard-working people who need our help, and we benefit from giving it to them. but the way it stands at the moment england is seen as an 'easy to abuse' country and until we change that image people will flock here for nothing other than handouts.
thats why they bypass france, etc, who have a far stricter and more effective system. -
richispsycho 722 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 17 years agoHurrah. Who would of thought Piro would of got me out of the hole I got myself into. 
Cheques in post btw...
Duncan. Didn't know you lived in Bangkok. I've never played R:TW online before, or agaisnt 'real' people.
I will have a look at how it works and post in here when i have it suss'd
Edited by richispsycho at 10:35:08 25-04-2005 -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 20 years agoDuncan, few things. First, I’ve lived on four different continents and have travelled a fair bit, so there’s a good chance I’ve spent more time abroad then you have. This doesn’t make me a foreign affairs expert but it does mean I ain’t completely clueless about other cultures. Second, quoting Naomi Klein or John Pillinger about world economics is like quoting the Pope on STVs.
You may think we in the west must feel absolute guilt for all the ills of the world but I think that in itself is somewhat distasteful. For doesn’t it rob these people of the ability to determine their own fate and make their lives wholly subservient to how we run our own?
Somewhat similar, to say immigration is the dog’s bollocks because it will allow our countries economies to continue to grow and will provide the income for us to retire on is to utterly ignore the effect the migration has on the countries of origin. Is it more damaging to try and encourage people to not settle in Britain in massive numbers then it is to suck developing countries dry of their smartest people, those with the skills and education which gives them global mobility? All those African nurses in the NHS may be propping up a fundamentally broken service but they are depriving some of the most medically needy people in the world of proper care.
Economic migration needs to be controlled. We have no idea about the real numbers behind the benefits and harm it does to the UK, and not the faintest idea about the level of harm it does to these donor countries. Asylum seekers, when genuine, need our help and support. I’m sure they would prefer it before they were chased out of their homes under the threat of death.
Which would you prefer: to build lots of battered wives homes or to put an end to domestic violence? -
Khanivor 44,800 posts
Seen 2 days ago
Registered 20 years agoduncan wrote:
fundamentally it seems that you trust those in power to have good intentions whereas I know for a fact that they don't.
Man, have you read any of my other posts since I created an EG account? LOL
Nothing will be done about the problems in the world if we just shrug our shoulders and say the leaders are cunts who only look out for themsleves. This is mostly true and happens because we allow it to happen. Far easier to wring our hands in manufactured guilt and then salve this guilt by trying to be the most welcoming to the displaced. Far easier then working out the tough question of how much responsibility we have as capable nations of stopping the excesses of fucked up regimes.
Apparently it's better to let people suffer in agony and silence then do anything about it. And for all its many crimes, at least the Bush administration is willing to call the violence in Darfur what it is, genocide, something the rest of the world is relluctant to do as it would, under international laws, compell them to take action. -
What's interesting is that none of the parties, as far as I've observed, has mentioned the fact, yes fact, that without immigration Britain (and the rest of Europe) is not going to be replacing those taxpayers who retire and revenues and services will fall. It's a huge problem that everyone tries to pretend will go away. Most of the parties know this and implicitly acknowledge the need for massive immigration but rather than deal with the issue honestly they dress it up as 'managing immigration' i.e. stopping it, not encouraging immigration from the people that you'd actually want and need. The tone of the Tories in particular would frighten any suitable immigrant away. Viewed from Canada where the debate is almost 180 degrees reversed it's hard to believe, but then I find many things about UK politics hard to believe. -
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