Post Poll... Britain decided to... Page 1227

  • JamboWayOh 10 Jan 2019 19:27:20 10,768 posts
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    I feel like V for Vendetta will become fact pretty soon.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Jan 2019 21:03:27 8,801 posts
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    The song for our times


  • Psychotext 10 Jan 2019 22:31:16 64,313 posts
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    Lammy being a fucking boss again.


    I have faced many challenges in the two decades for which I have sat in the House, but Sunday 7 August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, was by far the greatest. Walking on broken glass, past burnt-out cars, homes and businesses, comforting men and women who were still in their pyjamas, I saw the place where I had lived for my whole life turned to ashes.​

    Many members of the community were urging me to say that the killing of Mark Duggan by police, which had sparked the riots, justified that rage: that the families made homeless, the burnt-out buses and houses and the looted shops were worth it. They told me I had to say that that wrong was right. It was not easy, but I had to look members of my community in the face, tell them that the violence was a disgrace, and condemn it unequivocally. Why? Because we have a duty to tell our constituents the truth, even when they passionately disagree. We owe them not only our industry but our judgment. We are trusted representatives, not unthinking delegates, so why do many in the House continue to support Brexit when they know that it will wreck jobs, the NHS and our standing in the world?​

    This is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of the Brexit debate. Most Members now recognise that in private, but do not say it in public. Brexit is a con, a trick, a swindle, a fraud. It is a deception that will hurt most of the people it promised to help. It is a dangerous fantasy that will make every problem it claims to solve worse. It is a campaign won on false promises and lies. Both Vote Leave and Leave.EU broke the law. Russian interference is beyond reasonable doubt.​

    By now, every single campaign promise made in 2016 has come unstuck. Brexit will not enrich our NHS; it will impoverish it. Our trade deal with Donald Trump will see US corporations privatise and dismantle it, one bed at a time. Even the promises on immigration, which has so greatly enriched our country, are a lie. After Brexit, immigration will go up, not down. When we enter into negotiations with countries such as India and China, they will ask for three things—visas, visas and more visas—and they will get them, because we will be weak.​

    Then there is the myth about restoring parliamentary sovereignty. The last two years have shown what a joke that is. The Prime Minister has hoarded power like a deluded 21st-century Henry VIII. Impact assessments have been hidden, votes have been resisted and blocked, and simple opponents of Government policies have been bullied and threatened to get into line. Even when we forced a meaningful vote, the Prime Minister cancelled it, certain we would reject her disastrous deal—and oh, we will reject it, because it is a lose-lose compromise that offers no certainty for our future. All that it guarantees is more years of negotiation, headed by the same clowns who guided us into this farce in the first place.​

    We are suffering from a crisis of leadership in our hour of need. This country’s greatest moments came when we showed courage, not when we appeased: the courage of Wilberforce to emancipate the slaves in the face of the anger of the British ruling class, the courage of Winston Churchill to declare war on Hitler in the face of the appeasers in his Cabinet and the country, and the courage of Attlee and Bevan to nationalise the health service in the face of the doctors who protested that that was not right. Today, we too must be bold, because the challenges that we face are just as extreme. We must not be afraid to tell the truth to those who disagree.​

    Friends on this side of the House tell me to appease Labour voters in industrial towns: the former miners, the factory workers, those who feel that they have been left behind. I say that we must not patronise them with cowardice. Let us tell them the truth. Let us tell them, “You were sold a lie. Parts of the media used your fears to sell papers and boost viewing figures. Nigel Farage and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) exploited the same prejudice to win votes. Shame on them. Immigrants have not taken your jobs; our schools and colleges failed to give you skills.​

    Hospitals are crumbling not because of health tourists, but because of decades of austerity that ground them down to the bone. People cannot afford a house because both parties failed to build, not because Mohammed down the road moved in. Wealth was hoarded in London when it should have been shared across the country.​

    Blame us; blame Westminster: do not blame Brussels for our own country’s mistakes. And do not be angry at us for telling you the truth; be angry at the chancers who sold you a lie. As Martin Luther King said long ago:​

    “There comes a time when silence is betrayal.”​

    So just as I speak plainly to the Government this time around, let me speak to the Opposition about some home truths. There is no left-wing justification for Brexit. Ditching workers’ rights and social protections and ending environmental co-operation is not progressive. This is a project about neoliberal deregulation; it is Thatcherism on steroids, pushed by her modern-day disciples. Leaving the EU will not free us from the injustices of global capitalism; it will make us subordinate to Trump’s US.​

    Socialism confined to one country will not work. Whether we like it or not, the world we live in is global. We can fix the rigged system only if we co-operate across border lines. The party of Keir Hardie has always been international. We must not let down our young supporters by failing to stand with them on the biggest issue of our lives.​

    If we remain in the EU we can reform it from the top table: share the load of mass migration, address the excesses of the bureaucracy and fix inequalities between creditor and debtor states. We can recharge the economy. We can refuel the NHS. We can build the houses we need after years of hurt. Hope is what we need: remain in the EU; give Britain a second opportunity to decide.​
    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-01-10/debates/159740E3-991B-4DF4-A29C-D04B2F1CE10F/EuropeanUnion(Withdrawal)Act
  • JamboWayOh 10 Jan 2019 22:40:37 10,768 posts
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    I can do nothing but applaud that honesty from Lammy because it's all pretty fucking true. Even that bit about a left wing Brexit because that's all bollocks too. It's all bollocks.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 Jan 2019 01:03:10 8,801 posts
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    Some massive home truths for his own front bench in that.

    Just reading it and knowing him I can hear the passion of it too.

    If he wanted it and the New Unite-Momentum establishment axis within the party didn't turn on him I could totally see him being the first black leader of the Labour Party
  • thelzdking 11 Jan 2019 03:33:10 8,828 posts
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    But how will things change if we stay...

    /higgy
  • RichDC 11 Jan 2019 06:25:58 8,046 posts
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    I can't stand Lammy. I agree with him 100% there.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 07:02:56 13,389 posts
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    I misread that post thinking it was written by Limmy. I was really impressed.
  • KnuttinAtoll 11 Jan 2019 07:06:59 6,512 posts
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    That's some votable stuff there from him, fair play.

    Unfortunately though, the voice of a few, not the many.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 Jan 2019 07:22:56 8,801 posts
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    I was very disappointed but understand it from an emotional perspective that he had got caught up in some conspiracy theories over the years. He was making some of the cover-up of the number of casualties arguememts that got IPSO involved against sites like Skwawkbox which was a shame for example.


    (everything to do with skwawkbox is a shame or shameful though to be honest)
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 07:38:16 13,389 posts
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    Yeah, Lammy gets a pass over that Grenfell stuff. There are far more worrying associations between the Labour Party and fucking Skwawkbox.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 Jan 2019 07:44:52 8,801 posts
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    Steve was asking for the names od dissenting voices from Question Time last night apparently. He's such a creep.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 07:50:22 13,389 posts
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    Yeah. Tweet was deleted but the usual conspiracy theory nonsense that anyone who says they are considering leaving the Labour Party is in fact part of an underground Cabal of Tories led by Rees-Mogg, Rachel Riley and the Elders of Zion.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 Jan 2019 08:22:15 13,389 posts
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    I’m slightly split on Owen Jones as I think his heart is in the right place and he’s an important voice for the left, but he’s also one of those on the left that’s so deep into Corbyn he’s become an apologist for Brexit and antisemetism.

    However, I did enjoy watching him make Andrew Neil squirm.

    https://twitter.com/willblackwriter/status/1083610383942930432?s=21
  • GoatApocalypse 11 Jan 2019 08:29:07 5,146 posts
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    Lammy's wrong about Kier Hardie by a wide margin (fella was a massive racist, wanted to end immigration and stop Scottish people from emigrating) but there's a lot to applaud there.

    I disagree that it's possible to remain and reform - my views on the purpose of the EU have been pretty clear, even if I'd prefer to remain - and I don't have a strong sense of what people like Lammy would do in power. It's great to see some hindsight from him, but he was a Minister in the Labour government (he resigned because he wanted to be able to speak his mind more freely) when a lot of the shit that he highlights was being either enacted or ignored.

    He is absolutely bang on, therefore, to say that this is entirely as crisis of domestic politics. The EU is really neither here nor there when it comes to the real challenges this country faces; leaving certainly exacerbates them, at least in the short term. Clearly remaining limits the potential of a more left-wing domestic agenda but leaving throws is into the hands of disaster capitalists.

    I'm really torn on the idea of Lexit. In principle, I like it a lot. In practice, I suspect it's wildly impractical - especially in the absence of more left-wing governments in Europe and around the world with whom to build new international institutions.

    Lammy did a really interesting interview with Krishnan Guru-Murty as part of the Ways to Change the World series, which I'd recommend to everyone.

    Edited by GoatApocalypse at 08:29:31 11-01-2019

    Edited by GoatApocalypse at 08:36:23 11-01-2019
  • nickthegun 11 Jan 2019 09:29:06 76,218 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I misread that post thinking it was written by Limmy. I was really impressed.
    It would have been his funniest work yet
  • nickthegun 11 Jan 2019 09:31:07 76,218 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I’m slightly split on Owen Jones as I think his heart is in the right place and he’s an important voice for the left, but he’s also one of those on the left that’s so deep into Corbyn he’s become an apologist for Brexit and antisemetism.
    A lot of it feels like trying too hard to right past wrongs. He took a lot of shit for being an ABC but he finally got on the bandwagon and seems to be trying to make up for lost time.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 11 Jan 2019 09:34:19 17,497 posts
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    Fuckin... I'v faced many challenges in the two decades I've been sat in the Hoose right... but a tell ya wit, Sunday 7 August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, that were somthin else man.
  • minky-kong 11 Jan 2019 10:00:38 14,099 posts
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    Decks wrote:
    Fuckin... I'v faced many challenges in the two decades I've been sat in the Hoose right... but a tell ya wit, Sunday 7 August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, that were somthin else man.
    Had the pleasure of meeting Mark Duggan at a charity do once. He was surprisingly down to earth and VERY funny.
  • Armoured_Bear 11 Jan 2019 10:12:48 25,115 posts
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    https://twitter.com/ayocaesar/status/1083627205798834176?s=21

    Andrew Neil is such a massive cunt
  • Frogofdoom 11 Jan 2019 10:22:19 11,264 posts
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    How the fuck he stays in a job with some of his behaviour over the last few years is beyond me.
  • challenge_hanukkah 11 Jan 2019 10:23:18 9,285 posts
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    minky-kong wrote:
    Decks wrote:
    Fuckin... I'v faced many challenges in the two decades I've been sat in the Hoose right... but a tell ya wit, Sunday 7 August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, that were somthin else man.
    Had the pleasure of meeting Mark Duggan at a charity do once. He was surprisingly down to earth and VERY funny.
    Was his weed any good?
  • CosmicFuzz 11 Jan 2019 10:32:20 32,539 posts
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    minky-kong wrote:
    Decks wrote:
    Fuckin... I'v faced many challenges in the two decades I've been sat in the Hoose right... but a tell ya wit, Sunday 7 August 2011, the morning after the Tottenham riots, that were somthin else man.
    Had the pleasure of meeting Mark Duggan at a charity do once. He was surprisingly down to earth and VERY funny.
    :D
  • Salaman 11 Jan 2019 10:49:36 23,391 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I misread that post thinking it was written by Limmy. I was really impressed.
    I thought Lemmy, which confused me more.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 Jan 2019 11:20:35 8,801 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I’m slightly split on Owen Jones as I think his heart is in the right place and he’s an important voice for the left, but he’s also one of those on the left that’s so deep into Corbyn he’s become an apologist for Brexit and antisemetism.
    A lot of it feels like trying too hard to right past wrongs. He took a lot of shit for being an ABC but he finally got on the bandwagon and seems to be trying to make up for lost time.
    This is more or less where I am on Owen Jones' new found unflinching devotion.

    He wavered around the time of the 2017 local elections fearing the worst for the coming general election (not unreasonable given all historic precedent) and has been proving his faith at every opportunity since.

    His analytical eye is still generally quite sharp so long as the party political aspect is kept out of view.

    On balance I'm a fan. He's easily the most credible voice from that part of the left with a regular place in mainstream media.
  • AboutHalfaStevas 11 Jan 2019 11:22:52 1,324 posts
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    Yeah, it was bang on with a lot of it... And all...

    But if he believes any of that last paragraph he's as deluded as May.
  • imamazed 11 Jan 2019 11:26:08 6,375 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I’m slightly split on Owen Jones as I think his heart is in the right place and he’s an important voice for the left, but he’s also one of those on the left that’s so deep into Corbyn he’s become an apologist for Brexit and antisemetism.
    His analytical eye is still generally quite sharp so long as the party political aspect is kept out of view.
    That's the problem these days though - he almost always drags the party political aspect kicking and screaming into view. The moral gymnastics he does to spin any current issue to favour the Labour Party is not only tiresome in and of itself, but also invalidates his credibility more generally.

    And I say that as a Labour supporter

    Edited by imamazed at 11:27:35 11-01-2019
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 Jan 2019 11:28:06 8,801 posts
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    Both of his books are excellent introductions to how things are in Britain today. We stock piles of both in the uni library at my work.
  • Dougs 11 Jan 2019 11:31:04 87,666 posts
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    Bleeding leftie universities, corrupting the minds of our youth
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 Jan 2019 11:33:10 8,801 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Yeah. Tweet was deleted but the usual conspiracy theory nonsense that anyone who says they are considering leaving the Labour Party is in fact part of an underground Cabal of Tories led by Rees-Mogg, Rachel Riley and the Elders of Zion.
    He is everything everyone who hates Corbyn imagines and fears the Corbynite red left to be. That he is essentially an unaccredited representative of the leader's office is worrying.

    Corbyn isn't the monster he's always portrayed to be but that his allies give the green light to an attack dog who will lie, abuse and spread prejudice like this feels like all of the worst revenge based impulses of pink faced old men let loose.

    That his voice is actually listened to by members is really poisonous.
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