The CSGO gambling story Page 10

  • Rivuzu 22 Sep 2016 12:28:01 18,417 posts
    Seen 18 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Alright. I'll show my ignorance here. Aside from his videos where he misrepresented winning things, is there any proof that his site was rigged, or weighted in some way?
  • MrMattAdz 22 Sep 2016 12:30:15 3,671 posts
    Seen 4 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    And why does he keep going on about contractual obligations? Gamer network have given an explanation on why they made their decision, according to them it is down to not wanting to disappoint fans, they haven't mentioned anything legal at all, I mean Rauper literally said in the comment I copied that they had the choice to stop him from coming.
  • MrMattAdz 22 Sep 2016 12:34:49 3,671 posts
    Seen 4 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Rivuzu wrote:
    Alright. I'll show my ignorance here. Aside from his videos where he misrepresented winning things, is there any proof that his site was rigged, or weighted in some way?
    Not specifically in this case no, but another youtuber revealed that he was hired to advertise a similar website, and that the owner of the website manipulated the results in order to give him a skin worth thousands of pounds or something ludicrous like that.

    It stands to reason that if one site can do this that the other sites can do it too, and in their videos syndicate comes out with a lot more money than he started out with every time, with a big win at the end every time, followed by him saying something along the lines of "this is so easy to win big, everyone can do it, all you have to is come to my illegal gambling website"

    Edited by MrMattAdz at 12:37:10 22-09-2016
  • SomaticSense 22 Sep 2016 12:40:18 15,062 posts
    Seen 3 years ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    Rivuzu wrote:
    Alright. I'll show my ignorance here. Aside from his videos where he misrepresented winning things, is there any proof that his site was rigged, or weighted in some way?
    You think they won "THOUSANDS OF $$$ IN X MINUTES WITH CSGO LOTTO" legit? Their own site which they created and thus are able to if they were so inclined? You can be many things sometimes Riv, but I never pegged you as naive.

    Also there have been accounts from those involved with similar sites that it absolutely happens. The mere possibilty of it happening is enough, which is why other gambling industries are so heavily regulated in this one aspect.

    Edited by SomaticSense at 12:43:35 22-09-2016
  • urban 22 Sep 2016 12:45:01 13,110 posts
    Seen 3 days ago
    Registered 17 years ago
    I see TmarTn has dropped CS:GO complete and moved over to CoD again. Keep calm and carry on.
  • Unclebenny 22 Sep 2016 13:04:52 841 posts
    Seen 11 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Plus he has previous of not disclosing commercial agreements (swapping cash for good game reviews), which would be fine (well, not fine but forgivable) if he then didn't repeat the action in a more egregious and manipulative way.

    I really am not getting the "it's not the worst crime ever committed defence." I think most folks would just like to see them get some repercussions for their actions. Justice and that.
  • DFawkes 22 Sep 2016 13:08:53 32,747 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    He did something a bit dodgy, but for all we know maybe he actually regrets it and wants to move forward? Sure, an actual apology would be nice but I suppose that might get him into actual legal bother, as it'd be an admission of guilt. As is, what with that TmarTn taking most of the heat, he can shake it off as a silly mistake.

    Edited by DFawkes at 13:10:44 22-09-2016
  • Rivuzu 22 Sep 2016 13:22:28 18,417 posts
    Seen 18 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    I was just theorising re: the legal bit. Do you honestly expect GN to come out and disclose fully? Because I don't. It's their business. The message they're telling people may not be the thing really behind their decision.

    I know that's a shitty thing, but it was just a consideration. I'm trying to look at this as impartially as I can at the end of the day, rather than jumping on the bandwagon (as again, I've not watched the videos nor really done full on research on this, so the fuck do I know?).

    We've not been given proof that his site was weighted - and just because others did, doesn't mean he did (though I mean... yes, it is a concern).

    I didn't know about the game reviews thing mind you. Doesn't speak well to his character, for sure.

    There's an awful lot of murkiness. I just don't know how much of it was illegal, considering it was based on a false economy, bought into by willing participants, a vast majority of which shouldn't have been playing the game in the first place.

    Just seems to be an awful lot of emotional responses and demonising him. I'm not defending his gambling sites or what he did, but I'm also not grabbing the nearest pitchfork and calling people and businesses out.
  • MrMattAdz 22 Sep 2016 13:26:50 3,671 posts
    Seen 4 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Being regretful isn't a repercussion or a punishment.

    And it wasn't just something a bit dodgy, he was running an gambling website without a licence and didn't put an age block on it, advertised the site on his YouTube page to his millions of subscribers (made up mainly of minors) without disclosing that he owned the site, and most definitely manipulated his website into giving him big wins to help promote the website (while betting against other people).

    It's literally illegal, just a matter of waiting for the law to catch up with him I hope.
  • Rivuzu 22 Sep 2016 13:45:18 18,417 posts
    Seen 18 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    But what was being gambled wasn't currency. It was cosmetics. Any monetary value attributed to such isn't regulated in any way at all, and is entirely driven by the end user base. There is no standard by which the items being traded are valued. These are not commodities or assets.

    The game itself is your age block. It is to be restricted, per the PEGI and ESRB ratings, to people ages 18+. Only people of this age should have been able to even play the game, let alone accrue skins and participate in the gambling.

    Payouts are not offered in currency. Only in more cosmetics, adjusted to the "market value" which again, is decided entirely by the unregulated community. The Steam TOS also prohibits third party sales. This isn't the same as gambling casino chips.

    It'll be interesting to see how the courts rule though. There's no precedent for any of this as yet.

    Maybe Valve should just shut down the Steam Marketplace all together?
  • Syrette 22 Sep 2016 13:46:04 51,003 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 18 years ago
    Rivuzu wrote:
    Maybe Valve should just shut down the Steam Marketplace all together?
    Oh dear.
  • MrMattAdz 22 Sep 2016 13:53:31 3,671 posts
    Seen 4 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Taken from eg article

    And then there's also the question of whether gambling using skins or virtual currencies rather than actual money can be controlled in the same way as traditional betting. (The UK Gambling Commission's view is that yes, it can).

    "Where 'skins' are traded or are tradeable and can therefore act as a de facto virtual currency and facilities for gambling with those items are being offered, we consider that a licence is required," it wrote.
    Just quit while you're behind rivuzu, you basically said yourself that you have no idea what you're talking about and your method of proving your points is really quite idiotic.
  • MrMattAdz 22 Sep 2016 13:57:44 3,671 posts
    Seen 4 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    Rivuzu wrote:
    The game itself is your age block. It is to be restricted, per the PEGI and ESRB ratings, to people ages 18+. Only people of this age should have been able to even play the game, let alone accrue skins and participate in the gambling.
    "Why did you let those 13 year old kids gamble in your casino without checking their id?"
    "Well they were smoking and drinking alcohol outside the casino before they came in, I didn't see the point."
  • romelpotter 22 Sep 2016 13:58:19 317 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Its well known that Gambling can be addictive; in any form. With this in mind do you think its acceptable to portray the lure of "winning" and "winning big" to kids, (presumably) without Parental guidance?

    My nephew loves Youtube streamers and both myself and my bro work hard on trying to convince him that a lot of the videos are not real i.e. story presentations made to look cool.

    But it's really quite difficult in some respects when he tells us about some 23 yr old "Youtuber" and his mates have Lambo's (that they can't even drive because insurance and all that) sitting in the carpark of their plush luxury London apartment.

    The lines between fiction and reality are blurred, my Nephew talks about Youtube as being a carrier possibility.

    Now add in to the mix this CS:GO Lotto scandal.......
  • DugBriderider 22 Sep 2016 14:03:12 848 posts
    Seen 12 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    There's an awful lot of murkiness. I just don't know how much of it was illegal, considering it was based on a false economy, bought into by willing participants, a vast majority of which shouldn't have been playing the game in the first place.
    "We are paying close attention to the growing popularity of virtual or 'in-game' items, which can be traded, sold or used as virtual currencies to gamble," a Gambling Commission spokesperson told Eurogamer at the time.

    "If GB-based players are being invited to gamble with money or money's worth then this requires an operating licence." - UK Gambling Commission

    It's getting more clear cut all the time. This is not one word against another, there is clear evidence of ownership and undisclosed promotion.

    It seems Syndicate is a pioneer of making money from Youtube fame but also a pioneer of what not to do with that fame. There is so much untarnished talent on youtube why should he get away with making these mis-steps.

    This won't be the last time he gets in on a racket and out again before it heats up.
  • Syrette 22 Sep 2016 14:06:57 51,003 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 18 years ago
    I like how the other bloke seems to have gotten away with it, to an extent. Tmartin or whatever his name is.
  • MrMattAdz 22 Sep 2016 14:12:19 3,671 posts
    Seen 4 years ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    It's more of the other way around, the other guy got all the publicity for it because he was the one stupid enough go on camera kissing his dog while claiming that it was the audiences fault for not trying hard enough to find the information that he owned the site, and then claimed that everything he did was legal.

    Syndicate has done the wise thing and not said a work about it other than a twitter message saying "transparency from here on out!"

    Though that's just relatively speaking in terms of the two of them, both of them have completely got away with it thus far, I don't know if the American gambling commission or whatever it's called has made any moves to do something about it so far.

    Edited by MrMattAdz at 14:14:49 22-09-2016
  • Load_2.0 22 Sep 2016 15:05:21 32,507 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 18 years ago
    The comments above reinforce that this is more than just advertising a site.

    YouTube is dismissed by parents and those in their 30's and above. I admit I don't understand it, this new generation of celebrity seems devoid of talent or charisma. The pewdepeis, smosh, ksi all strike me as incredibly irritating but the influence they exert is beyond any other forms of media. It's incredibly effective and poorly regulated. It's an advertisers wet dream, a target market who will believe what they are told without question because they idolise these people and have the means to communicate with them through YT comments or social media which creates a bond.

    That's what makes this so dishonest.

    Ignoring this guy's activities legitimises the behaviour, giving him a massive platform to promote it at the Expo endorses it.
  • breakablepants 22 Sep 2016 15:12:27 1,099 posts
    Seen 16 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    I don't think either of them has got away with anything; I believe that both have been named alongside Valve in a class-action lawsuit currently getting underway in the US?

    There was also a story last week about a UK YouTuber who is currently being prosecuted for running a gambling website based on Fifa virtual currency. Depending on what happens, expect that to set a precedent for other sites.

    http://www.dailydot.com/esports/csgo-gambling-scandal-explained/
  • breakablepants 22 Sep 2016 15:23:58 1,099 posts
    Seen 16 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    @Load_2.0 couldn't agree more.

    The whole thing with YouTube and Twitch is crazy, it's completely unregulated and vey few people disclose when they are being paid to promote stuff, or whether they have a vested interest in sites that they hype up. I run a small agency that does PR for indie games, and it's literally got to the point where brands are throwing money at teenagers without any rules or regulations. Aside from CS:Go, the whole situation feels really shady.
  • Unclebenny 22 Sep 2016 17:55:33 841 posts
    Seen 11 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    The fact most of the fans are teenagers as well makes it even harder to properly sanction. They will happily follow their preferred star to the ends of the earth.
    Youtube and twitch stars have this unearned reputation of being untainted when they are more open to temptation than almost any major industry before.
    There are no controls in place to prevent it, most of the stars have no experience dealing with business chicanery and the dream for most is to get that sponsership so they can live off their videos.
    The fact some of them are taking advantage of this is galling in the extreme.
  • SomaticSense 22 Sep 2016 21:55:30 15,062 posts
    Seen 3 years ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    Rivuzu wrote:
    Just seems to be an awful lot of emotional responses and demonising him. I'm not defending his gambling sites or what he did, but I'm also not grabbing the nearest pitchfork and calling people and businesses out.
    I'm curious as to where you've drawn this conclusion.

    All it's pretty much been is "tut tut Gamer Network, I'm disappointed in you", and criticising Syndicate for his actions and suggesting he probably shouldn't be held up as role model. No one is comparing him to a rapist, no one is levelling threats at him or the EGX organisers, or doing anything worse than calling Synicate himself a bit of a cunt. Which I think - evidence permitting - is a fair enough conclusion that those either side of the fence could agree with.

    When a big organisation does something you disagree with, it's up to you to express your criticism of it, regardless of the likely outcome of it. That is all that's happening here. I don't see pitchfork waving.
  • Rivuzu 22 Sep 2016 22:08:56 18,417 posts
    Seen 18 hours ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    @SomaticSense yup, I was clearly mistaken and most likely shouldn't have bothered commenting.
  • brokenkey 10 Oct 2016 10:34:35 10,729 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 19 years ago
    "not as bad as Jimmy Saville". Not yet.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37590004
  • SomaticSense 11 Oct 2016 10:53:20 15,062 posts
    Seen 3 years ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    They are cunts for trying what they did, no doubt, but it's a bit much to associate that article in any way with the fraudulent underage gambling crew given the only link is the use of Youtube.
  • brokenkey 11 Oct 2016 11:12:12 10,729 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 19 years ago
    SomaticSense wrote:
    They are cunts for trying what they did, no doubt, but it's a bit much to associate that article in any way with the fraudulent underage gambling crew given the only link is the use of Youtube.
    Youtube personalities take advantage of young people in a dodgy way. Just different flavours of dodgy.

    Also, gambling and sexual exploitation often go hand in hand - see Las Vegas.

    I'm not saying that our CSGOlottery owning friends are accused of doing anything yet. But if you were stuck in a hotel in a midlands conference centre for a week, with hoards of adoring people clamoring to spend time with you.....

    Edited by brokenkey at 11:19:19 11-10-2016
  • SomaticSense 11 Oct 2016 11:55:31 15,062 posts
    Seen 3 years ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    Come on man...

    Way to live up to Riv's then inaccurate summation of the thread.
  • Load_2.0 11 Oct 2016 12:00:34 32,507 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 18 years ago
    There are so many brands and companies desperately trying to link themselves to these guys. They couldn't give a fuck what they are like, there is no vetting, no background checks, no real rules as to their behaviour. I'm sure they have a PR agency keeping their shit in check where possible but unless it's a headline or effecting the cash flow they wouldn't give a fuck.

    It's pure greed, they see the millions and millions of followers and it's Ka-ching! The EG Expo highlights that fact.

    It's going to take Pew De Pie getting papped fucking a 15 year up the shitter in a Premier Inn before it changes.

    After that everyone will declare how aghast they are at the individuals behaviour, disown them and severe all ties, make some statement about their organisations values and introduce a range of guidelines and procedures for future associations.
  • Mekanik 14 Oct 2016 10:17:34 4,726 posts
    Seen 6 days ago
    Registered 16 years ago
    There seems to be a lot of stuff in this thread talked about by people who have no real clue about what was going on. I suggest you guys go and read up on all the details before commenting any further.

    These guys are cunts. The entire gambling industry inside virtual skin betting (particularly CSGO) is full of dodgy cunts. Some of the top teams (Faze - big CoD/CSGO team) are linked to some of these websites. Big youtubers rigging betting outcomes on their very own websites to steal money from basically underage kids. The list goes on.

    And now Valve have become the main target for the officials in the US, and even the UK are looking in to this now. All because of greedy fuckers trying to rip off as much money as possible from what amounts to kids (and therefore taking the money from their parents, but thats a different discussion).

  • Mekanik 14 Oct 2016 10:21:55 4,726 posts
    Seen 6 days ago
    Registered 16 years ago
    There is also a follow up video by RL (about an hour and a half long) with Bryce Blum who is an esports lawyer. If you can be bothered watching the entire thing its very interesting.

    Trying to whitewash the events of the last few months saying its only ickle youtubers and kids should be aware etc etc really doesnt do service to how much of a shitstorm this could cause in esports in general.

    As stated by RL in another video, legal gambling companies want to get involved in esports, but they are waiting until this current shitstorm has passed, regulations agreed etc before investing money in the sports. Gambling always creates a greater interest and appeal for sports, any sports, and it could be one of the final things that helps promote esports to a more acceptable and popular level.

    Cunts like these youtubers (they are not the only ones of course) are fucking it all up with their greed.

    Also, based upon the above video about Valve's problems, the easiest way they could fix it would be to shut down their marketplace (or at least prevent player to player trades). Big impact for everyone that uses steam.
Sign in or register to reply

Sometimes posts may contain links to online retail stores. If you click on one and make a purchase we may receive a small commission. For more information, go here.