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I have a CECHA01 (US Launch 60 GB model) PS3, with the full hardware backwards compatibility setup (PStwo's EE+GS chip). It has always been my understanding that you have a choice of either using the game source at the native 480i, and have the PS3 use it's upscaler to output 1080p from that source - OR the native progressive scan output option for select games (e.x. 480p in God of War 2, Gran Turismo 4, etc). When using a progressive scan output, the PS3 will not be able to use it's upscaler. However, I'm getting a report from someone claiming their PAL second generation system - CECHC04 (60GB EU Launch system), with the partial BC support (PStwo GS chip only), can indeed upscale to 1080p from a 480p source PS2 game. Anyone else have any experience with this? |
PS2 Upscaling on PS3 Tech Question
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wmxp 12 posts
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Registered 5 years ago -
BigOrkWaaagh 10,554 posts
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Registered 14 years agoHow would you even check if the PS3 is using its upscaler or not? -
Psiloc 6,366 posts
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Registered 14 years agoAs far as I recall, the PS3 would deinterlace as well as upscale PS2 games, meaning the progressive scan mode built in to games would be more or less redundant.
However to answer your question I'm pretty sure my European PS3 would upscale progressive scan games up to 1080p. I suppose that might be one of the benefits of a software emulator as opposed to the real chip.
As to whether progressive scan mode is better than the PS3's deinterlacer, I have absolutely no idea. I definitely don't recall any deinterlace artefacts. -
figgis 7,721 posts
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Registered 16 years agoA launch PS3 still working? -
wmxp 12 posts
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Registered 5 years agoPsiloc wrote:
Sorry, that is not my question at all. Let me explain this better:
As far as I recall, the PS3 would deinterlace as well as upscale PS2 games, meaning the progressive scan mode built in to games would be more or less redundant.
However to answer your question I'm pretty sure my European PS3 would upscale progressive scan games up to 1080p. I suppose that might be one of the benefits of a software emulator as opposed to the real chip.
As to whether progressive scan mode is better than the PS3's deinterlacer, I have absolutely no idea. I definitely don't recall any deinterlace artefacts.
1) The PS3 can be set as to use its upscaler or not:
http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/gamesettings.html
This menu will be labelled as "PS / PS2 Upscaler" if you have one of the original FOUR models of the PS3 that support PS2 backwards compatibility (CECHA/B/C/E):
http://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/PS2_Compatibility
2) The image the PS3 outputs is *only* as good as the original SOURCE. Yes, the image gets deinterlaced and upscaled, but *ONLY* when the source was 480i.
There is a finite amount of original PS2 games that offer the ability to output a 480p, progressive scan signal - natively, not deinterlaced:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_games_with_alternate_display_modes
This required component cables, and not the original AV/composite video cable the PS2 shipped with.
3) When the PS3 launched in Japan/US, the original two phat models (60GB/20GB or CECHA/CECHB) had the combined CPU/GPU chip of the slim model PS2 on its motherboard.
When the PS2 phat launched, these were separate chips. When the slim PS2 (PStwo) came out, they cut cost by merging them into a single chip.
PS2 CPU = EE or "Emotion Engine"
PS2 GPU = GS or "Graphics Synthesizer"
These two PS3 SKU models had near perfect backwards compatibility with the PS2 library. When the PS3 launched in Europe, the 60GB launch model was CECHC which ditched the combined EE+GS chip, and replaced it with just a standalone GS chip. This model was referred to as "partial backwards compatibility", and while it supported the vast majority of PS2 games with no discernible difference, the total library of supported titles was less. The PS3's CPU - the "Broadband Engine", took over emulation duties of the EE portion of the chip.
Later, this GS only version of the PS3 came to North America as 80GB model CECHE. Sony's own support website use to have a searchable backwards compatibility list based on this model change:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080629211241/http://www.us.playstation.com/SUPPORT/COMPATIBLESTATUS
Nowadays we have this mess of a list, which is very inaccurate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_and_PlayStation_2_games_compatible_with_PlayStation_3
4) FINALLY, the meat of the subject:
When the PS3 is upscaling a PS2 game over HDMI, quite simply your TV reports the input signal as 1080p - but the original game source was still 480i, it has just deinterlaced and upscaled the signal.
When you enable NATIVE 480p output mode in one of those specific PS2 games, the upscaler/smoother is DISABLED on the CECHA/B PS3, and your TV will report the input signal as 480p.
For MANY games, a native 480p picture is much more crisp than a deinterlaced, upscaled 1080p, as shown here:
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2007/06/02/playstation-3-upscaling-comparison?page=3
Now MY question is, I have come across someone claiming that the PAL 60GB launch model CECHC does NOT disable the upscaler when a native 480p output option is used, and so you are only up scaling a progressive scan resolution and not deinterlacing it, which is of course superior in everyway. I'm trying to find out if there's any truth to this claim, because I can't find any information on it anywhere! X_X
My sincere apologies for the wall of text. Given the tech savvy nature of Eurogamer team, especially the Digital Foundry branch, I thought this might be the place to get answers. Thank you for your response none the less..gif)
*Edit* I need to slow down a bit and read myself. Way too many forum tabs open, and I'm confusing replies. You seem to understand perfectly what I was asking. I'll leave the post as is, so I don't create any more damage. X_X
Edited by wmxp at 23:50:06 10-03-2017 -
Welcome back -
wmxp 12 posts
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Registered 5 years ago@figgis Works just fine. I cracked it open to change the thermal compound because it was a flaking mess, but the FIRST launch consoles had amazingly copper cooling heat pipes and quality components. The final model phat consoles before the slims launched were indeed very shitty, they changed so much to cut cost including moving to cheap thin aluminum cooling parts. -
mal 29,326 posts
Seen 3 years ago
Registered 20 years agoNo idea what it does with PS2 games, but in my experience the PS3 would try and upscale any video files to your specified maximum resolution. I'd expect it to do that with PS2 games whether they're 480i or 480p, but I've never tried it so dunno. -
challenge_hanukkah 14,394 posts
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Registered 8 years agoFictionally implausible. -
Psiloc 6,366 posts
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Registered 14 years agoWell to be fair I welcomed the confession at the end, reading that I began wondering "wait what did I say again?".
The link to the upscaler comparison was interesting though. -
wmxp 12 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 5 years agoPsiloc wrote:
For reference, this is the thread that got this started:
Well to be fair I welcomed the confession at the end, reading that I began wondering "wait what did I say again?".
The link to the upscaler comparison was interesting though.
http://psx-scene.com/forums/f177/ps2-upscale-ps-3-bc-20-gb-480p-1080-p-impossible-157010/
(Yes, I'm the mod there) -
Googling "PS3 60GB vs 80GB" seems to yield a shedload of relevant-looking hits, from YouTube comparisons to whole forums devoted to the subject.
The consensus seems to be "60GB FTW, 80GB SUX" -
wmxp 12 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 5 years agoghostgate2001 wrote:
Yeah, that was always the community stance from the get go. The 60 supported more PS2 games, therefore was better - full stop. Hence my extreme surprise to discover this little tidbit. I still want to see it in action though, so I might just have to track down the 80.
Googling "PS3 60GB vs 80GB" seems to yield a shedload of relevant-looking hits, from YouTube comparisons to whole forums devoted to the subject.
The consensus seems to be "60GB FTW, 80GB SUX" -
It is worth the trade-off, though? Even if it's true that the 80GB model handles 480p PS2 game visuals better than the 60GB, the dodgy emulation performance and more limited compatibility surely outweighs that? How many of that list of PS2 games that support 480p actually play better - or at all - on an 80GB PS3?
Anyway, I'm quite interested in the outcome of your research on this as I own the same model PS3 as you, i.e. first-run US 60GB hardware, and like you I always assumed it was the bee's knees of PS3s
Looking at that list, I have about 10 of those US PS2 games with 480p support so can do some checking if you don't have the same games to hand. Can't compare with the PAL PS3 though, because my PAL PS3 is the later "Slim" model with no PS2 disc support at all.
Most of my PS1/PS2 games were NTSC U/C anyway, so it made sense for me to import one of those properly backwards-compatible US PS3s at the time (a decade ago now...) -
wmxp 12 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 5 years agoghostgate2001 wrote:
Who said anything about getting rid of my 60? Getting a second hand CECHE isn't that big a deal these days. I'm more interested in what makes it tick rather than any practical considerations if I'm honest. *shrugs*
It is worth the trade-off, though? Even if it's true that the 80GB model handles 480p PS2 game visuals better than the 60GB, the dodgy emulation performance and more limited compatibility surely outweighs that? How many of that list of PS2 games that support 480p actually play better - or at all - on an 80GB PS3?
Anyway, I'm quite interested in the outcome of your research on this as I own the same model PS3 as you, i.e. first-run US 60GB hardware, and like you I always assumed it was the bee's knees of PS3s
Looking at that list, I have about 10 of those US PS2 games with 480p support so can do some checking if you don't have the same games to hand. Can't compare with the PAL PS3 though, because my PAL PS3 is the later "Slim" model with no PS2 disc support at all.
Most of my PS1/PS2 games were NTSC U/C anyway, so it made sense for me to import one of those properly backwards-compatible US PS3s at the time (a decade ago now...)
(This making the assumption however that for all intents and purposes, the CECHC and CECHE are the same. They both run the stand alone GS chip.) -
No-one mentioned getting rid of the 60GB model
I meant "trade-off" in the sense of weighing up the comparative good and bad points of the 60/80 models, not literally trading one machine for the other.
Anyway, yes, it would be interesting to know whether the partially emulated version offered any visual improvements over the hardware version - just out of interest in the technical aspects of the implementation. -
BigOrkWaaagh 10,554 posts
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Registered 14 years agoI have a working launch PS3 with software PS2 emulation still hooked up to my TV. I'd be happy to help if I knew what the fuck I was looking for. -
wmxp 12 posts
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Registered 5 years ago@BigOrkWaaagh
Which model does it say on the sticker on the bottom of your system? CECHC?
1) Set PS2 Upscaler to "Full Screen", and have your PS3 connected to your TV via HDMI with 1080p set as the output resolution.
2) You need a PS2 game that supports 480p output resolution, and you need to turn it on it game. Sometimes this is set from an options menu, sometimes it's a special key combination you have to hold while the game is loading. Check your library against the wiki list.
3) With 480p output turned on in game, simply check what your TV reports as the display resolution. Usually some sort of "Info" or "Display" button on your TV remote control.
On the US/Japan launch 60/20 consoles, the resolution will change to 480p, ignoring what the PS3's output resolution / Upscaler settings are configured to.
The theory is, on the PAL launch 60, you'll see 1080p still. -
BigOrkWaaagh 10,554 posts
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Registered 14 years ago@wmxp Alright, I think I've still got Destroy All Humans 1 and 2, which says they support 480p on PAL on Wiki. I'll try it tonight. -
BigOrkWaaagh 10,554 posts
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Registered 14 years ago@wmxp 
Edited by BigOrkWaaagh at 19:46:19 11-03-2017 -
wmxp 12 posts
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Registered 5 years ago@BigOrkWaaagh
To really seal the deal, if you want to dissuade any doubters:
1)Take a video from the main screen like that when you just boot the game, and again press your TV info button like you did showing the 1080p initally from the 480i upscale.
2)With the video still going, go into the options menu and demonstrate enabling the progressive scan option and finishing the usual "are you sure" prompt.
3)Same clip, press the TV info button again after the progressive scan bump.
You'll win a piece of the internet for a day/week.
In fact, I'll facilitate it. I'm a moderator at PSX-Scene.com, and we'll front page the news story...a decade late but whatever! -
BigOrkWaaagh 10,554 posts
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Registered 14 years ago@wmxp You think I'm making it up? Why on earth would I do that? I was trying to do you a favour here. -
wmxp 12 posts
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Registered 5 years ago@BigOrkWaaagh
No not at all. I've just spent...well a lot of time on the internet with tech stuff. I want to make a news story of this, as I said. It doesn't matter what I believe, people demand evidence because they are committed to their views. Please believe me, this is not an attack on your credibility and I'm *very* thankful for your time on this matter already - so many levels of awesome.
If you are unable to fulfill that request, no worries, thanks again for your help.
Edited by wmxp at 23:36:08 11-03-2017 -
BigOrkWaaagh 10,554 posts
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Registered 14 years ago@wmxp OK fine, I filmed the damn video. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with it though, I'm not on YouTube or owt. -
BigOrkWaaagh 10,554 posts
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Registered 14 years ago@wmxp I don't know if you know this, but if I set my PS3 display res to Auto, the only options are 576i, 720p, 1080i and 1080p, so perhaps the PAL machines don't support 480p, which is why 480p PS2 games display in 1080p (or whatever)? -
wmxp 12 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 5 years ago@BigOrkWaaagh
You don't need to make a youtube account, just upload the video file to mediafire / mega / whatever file sharing site. I'll take care of the rest for you, and give you all the credit.
I believe 480p not being an output option is more a limitation of your TV, rather than the console. The PS3 and TV can "talk" to each other over HDMI, and query capabilities. I could be wrong though :X
Thanks again mate -
BigOrkWaaagh 10,554 posts
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Registered 14 years ago@wmxp A quick Google suggests it's a limitation of PAL PS3s. I'll sort something out with the video tomorrow. -
wmxp 12 posts
Seen 4 years ago
Registered 5 years ago@BigOrkWaaagh http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/videooutput.html
I stand corrected good sir! That sucks. I guess that's why the 480p mode is missing from the vast majority of PAL PS2 games. -
Malek86 12,331 posts
Seen 15 hours ago
Registered 14 years agoBack when I still used a PS3, I remember the console couldn't even output in 60hz when you connected it via regular composite cables. Essentially you were stuck with 576i (and a really crappy one, apparently no games were optimized for 50hz because Sony thought everyone would play the console with HD cables.... you got stuttering everywhere).
I guess the PS3 doesn't actually support 480i/p in Europe, then.
Surprisingly, at one point Sony itself mentioned that God of War 2 on a launch PS3 would run at true 576p, but that seems to go against what every test suggests (it should be deinterlaced and upscaled to 1080p). Either Sony was making stuff up to avoid complicating things too much, or maybe some specific games got a different treatment?
Edited by Malek86 at 11:11:00 12-03-2017 -
Do the ps3s that support ps2 games allow remote play on psp or vita for ps2 games?
.gif)
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