Saul_Iscariot wrote:To be fair, as I understand it the only thing that's managed to close down the gap between the rich and poor in the past century is massive instability, and preferably, a world war. The rich have further to fall and fall faster than the poor. Of course, a horrible time is had by all, but it's the only way we know of to actually reset the gap. |
Scottish Indyref 2 • Page 14
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mal 29,326 posts
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Armoured_Bear 31,233 posts
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Registered 10 years agoLetsGoAGAIN wrote:
I don't love the SNP, they're pretty much the best of a terrible lot and by no means perfect.
@Armoured_Bear I appreciate how much you love the SNP, but how can you be so blinded on her failings?
Oh, and May is negotiating with her, she wanted a ScotRef and May said once the EU talks are over, simple as that.
However, I trust (relatively, they're politicians) and respect Sturgeon way, was, way more than May, that's for sure. What actual point are you trying to make?
May is doing fuck all negotiating, she told Sturgeon on the phone that that the binary market wasn't a binary issue then 2 hours later announced that the UK would definitely not be part of the single market. -
DaM 17,729 posts
Seen 51 minutes ago
Registered 20 years ago"Scotland is another country" says despondant Welsh Tory minister.
No shit Sherlock!
I've not been to Wales much, just a castle over the border a bit. Is it just England with less vowels?
Edited by DaM at 10:34:24 20-03-2017 -
docrob 1,795 posts
Seen 1 day ago
Registered 13 years agoDaM wrote:
I have the dubious honour of having this numpty as my MP. He is the perfect little Tory. Always does what he's told. He has been on the wrong side of every vote going (even voted against plain cigarette packaging). He also campaigned for Remain, but as soon as Leave won, he voted against guaranteeing the right to stay for EU nationals already in the UK.
"Scotland is another country" says despondant Welsh Tory minister.
No shit Sherlock!
I've not been to Wales much, just a castle over the border a bit. Is it just England with less vowels?
In this case, however, although he is stating the blindingly obvious, at least he has picked up that the times are changing and Scotland is growing apart from England/Wales. That's unusual insight for a Tory. I don't think Ruth Davidson has realised it yet. -
jasonkane wrote:
great start to forum life.
There isn't going to be another referendum.
Stop wasting your time obsessing about it. -
DFawkes 32,785 posts
Seen 13 hours ago
Registered 16 years agoIf only we'd just had a non-legally binding referendum on some issue that covered the whole of the UK. That'd be a template for the sort of thing Scotland could still do, if the Scottish Government wanted to. It'd only be advisory, strictly speaking, but nothing to really stop it happening. -
Armoured_Bear 31,233 posts
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Registered 10 years agojasonkane wrote:
Yes because the SNP proved themselves unable to govern during a referendum until now.
Graxlar_v2 wrote:
The SNP are going to spend so much time over the next 3-4yrs obsessing and crying about not getting another referendum on their timetable that jobs & public services will go down the toilet.
jasonkane wrote:
great start to forum life.
There isn't going to be another referendum.
Stop wasting your time obsessing about it.
...at which point the Scottish electorate will finally lose patience with these one trick pony's and they'll lose enough seats in Holyrood to ensure they'll not be able to claim any kind of mandate to hold one. -
DFawkes 32,785 posts
Seen 13 hours ago
Registered 16 years agoI appreciate that, south of the border, the only things that get reported on are any time Nicola Sturgeon opens her mouth and says "independence", but outside of that they're actually a fairly solid party that tries to represent the wishes of the people that voted for them. They don't win seats by promising referendums, they win seats based on manifesto pledges regarding education, health care, employment and supporting new businesses, just like any other party would. Up until recently I've barely even seen them mention a new referendum on the local news. 99% of the time it's just the same boring stuff you'd see about any party.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they've managed to hit everything they set out to do in their last manifesto (no party does), or haven't changed their stance on anything, but the fact is they did have a manifesto, and it wasn't as focused on independence as you might think.gif)
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Gibroon 2,658 posts
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Registered 17 years agoI find it funny how all the other parties scoffed at the 700 page white paper, written up by lawyers with various expertise in their field. There's no doubt their were a few concerns in what was in the white paper but it's a damn sight more comprehensive than say... hmmm... the brexit strategy. -
DaM 17,729 posts
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Registered 20 years agojasonkane wrote:
Huge Brexit burden of 15 bills
Graxlar_v2 wrote:
The SNP are going to spend so much time over the next 3-4yrs obsessing and crying about not getting another referendum on their timetable that jobs & public services will go down the toilet.
jasonkane wrote:
great start to forum life.
There isn't going to be another referendum.
Stop wasting your time obsessing about it.
...at which point the Scottish electorate will finally lose patience with these one trick pony's and they'll lose enough seats in Holyrood to ensure they'll not be able to claim any kind of mandate to hold one.
Maybe Teresa would be better sorting out the UK's issues rather than creating them.
Jobs and public services will be going down all over the UK due to Brexit. -
President_Weasel 12,355 posts
Seen 2 weeks ago
Registered 17 years agojasonkane wrote:
Sadly this is a more cogent and in depth response than the white paper got from the UK government.
Concerns?
It was fucking horseshit from start to finish and was attempt to buy independence with a fraudulent prospectus.
Lying cunts like Salmond, Sturgeon & Swinney who signed up to it should be prosecuted for lying in public office. -
DFawkes 32,785 posts
Seen 13 hours ago
Registered 16 years agojasonkane wrote:
What specifically do you regard as fraudulent in the white paper? It's 650 pages long, so to outright dismiss every single page as fraudulent isn't exactly a reasonable, level headed response to it. There are certainly parts of it I'd question, as it very much portrays the best case scenarios for the most part (which to be fair you'd expect as it is essentially a sales pitch of sorts), but there are also parts that represent the objective truth.
Concerns?
It was nonsense from start to finish and was attempt to buy independence with a fraudulent prospectus.
Lying people like Salmond, Sturgeon & Swinney who signed up to it should be prosecuted for lying in public office.
Also it wasn't really just those 3 people that signed up to anything, it was the majority of the Scottish Government and almost every Scottish MP. It's their job to represent the people in their constituencies according to the policies they promised. I might be wrong, but I don't think there's really a sound legal case for prosecuting people in a political party for fulfilling a manifesto pledge that doesn't directly involve breaking the law. There's not even reasonable legal ground for not fulfilling a promise to the people the elected you. -
samharper 1,124 posts
Seen 1 minute ago
Registered 9 years agoThe SNP fell out of favour with me big style after the 2015 GE, my constituency dumped our active Lib Dem MP for an MP who had no prior political experience and has been suspended from the SNP for quite some time now for alleged monetary fiddling. I was willing to think it was a one off and then the Natalie McGarry thing happened and now I just don't feel like they vet their MPs enough.
That and the whole al-Megrahi episode was pretty bad too.
Edited by samharper at 11:44:20 21-03-2017 -
@DFawkes c'mon fawkes. This guy is clearly a troll. You know better
Everyone knows that the SNP got elected because (from an English point of view) ignoring independence they have the best intentions. A lot of people would have voted for them in the last elections in England over labour. -
jasonkane wrote:
You want the Brexit thread squire.
It was fucking horseshit from start to finish and was attempt to buy independence with a fraudulent prospectus. -
oceanmotion 17,358 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 18 years agoBrexit means what you just said. -
DaM wrote:
I would have believed that back in July last year, yet given the continuing non-EU investment in the country (even where I live which is probably going to be hardest hit by Brexit) and the fact that the businesses in our sector are doing exceptionally well using the weak pound to increase international sales (and I acknowledge this is only a temporary phenomena!) I'm actually feeling more optimistic over what was a very bad decision by the nation.
Jobs and public services will be going down all over the UK due to Brexit.
Indyref1 split friendships and families apart, having a second one so soon afterwards when the wounds aren't entirely healed is going to cause more suffering, I suspect some English "ex-pats" are already getting ready to move back down to England to avoid it all. The timeframe suggested by Sturgeon is deliberately provocative, and I suspect she chose that date to be provocative knowing full well that the govt wouldn't agree to it.
The people of Scotland ought to be very careful. I think joining the EU is achievable should they choose to be independent, but getting that deficit down is going to need a big bite of the austerity apple - one that the generally left-leaning populace won't like. -
President_Weasel 12,355 posts
Seen 2 weeks ago
Registered 17 years agosamharper wrote:
Yeah, we let him out on health grounds and he had the ill grace not to die. On the other hand the health thing was a convenient excuse, because the conviction had been described by, if I remember correctly, the foremost legal expert, as unsafe. We'd have had an expensive embarrassing retrial and probably had to let him go anyway.
That and the whole al-Megrahi episode was pretty bad too.
Of course, I may be wrong. -
DaM 17,729 posts
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Registered 20 years agoneptunium wrote:
My family was split last time (we didn't fall out, just some heated discussions!). This time no split.
Indyref1 split friendships and families apart, having a second one so soon afterwards when the wounds aren't entirely healed is going to cause more suffering, I suspect some English "ex-pats" are already getting ready to move back down to England to avoid it all.
My wife is one English "ex-pat" who has changed her position on Scottish independence, as she does not recognise England as her country any more. We are ashamed to be British. -
Rusty_M 7,172 posts
Seen 4 days ago
Registered 14 years agoDaM wrote:
I'm in a similar boat. My wife used to be a Tory voter, too. I only just was swayed pro independence shortly before the last vote. Now we want as firmly away from the Brexit shitstorm as possible.
neptunium wrote:
My family was split last time (we didn't fall out, just some heated discussions!). This time no split.
Indyref1 split friendships and families apart, having a second one so soon afterwards when the wounds aren't entirely healed is going to cause more suffering, I suspect some English "ex-pats" are already getting ready to move back down to England to avoid it all.
My wife is one English "ex-pat" who has changed her position on Scottish independence, as she does not recognise England as her country any more. We are ashamed to be British. -
mickerty 345 posts
Seen 2 years ago
Registered 6 years ago@oceanmotion Brexit means what you just said.
I think you'll find "Brexit means Brexit"
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DaM wrote:
I don't get this position. This was a knife's edge, statistically. Near enough half the voters wanted in, half of them wanted out.
We are ashamed to be British.
Rusty_M wrote:
Independence is just a different shitstorm. If there were a referendum today and the Yes's won it, Scotland would be out of the union and out of the EU and would need to do negotiation with the union as well as parallel negotiations with the EU.
Now we want as firmly away from the Brexit shitstorm as possible. -
DaM 17,729 posts
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Registered 20 years agoBoth options are a shitstorm, that's the point. Scottish independence just looks like the more forward looking, less racist shitstorm. -
Blurp 1,447 posts
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Registered 5 years agoBut if EU membership isn't guaranteed, it's two shitstorms on top of each other. -
Sorry, I have to roll my eyes at the "less racist" comment - a lot of English folk were treated pretty poorly during the last indyref for the crime of being English.
.gif)
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