Following And you thought Ryan Air were bad? (United are worse) Page 10

  • twelveways 15 Apr 2017 18:31:39 7,131 posts
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    The source that that columnist quotes is United Airlines Contract of Carriage. It doesn't mention anything about 'offloading' or forcibly removing passengers.
  • Tonka 16 Apr 2017 01:00:03 29,676 posts
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    Trowel wrote:
    The legal aspects have been well covered:
    ...United, like most airlines, has a clause in its contract with every passenger which says, effectively, “You may have a ‘confirmed’ reservation for a flight, and be sitting on board, but we still reserve the right to offload you to make room for someone else.” (The actual wording is: “All of UA’s flights are subject to overbooking which could result in UA’s inability to provide previously confirmed reserved space for a given flight.”)

    I also pointed out that the captain’s word goes. The Federal Aviation Administration says: “The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.” Our own CAA has a similar regulation: “Every person in an aircraft must obey all lawful commands which the pilot in command of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried in the aircraft, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/united-airlines-flight-3411-david-dao-denied-boarding-overbooking-compensation-regulations-faa-caa-a7682276.html
    The flight wasn't overbooked
  • Syrette 16 Apr 2017 01:12:07 50,297 posts
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    You know more than a travel expert?
  • Tonka 16 Apr 2017 01:14:55 29,676 posts
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    By reading what other travel experts say.

    An overbooked flight has people turned away at the check in counter. I know that from personal experience btw. If all paying customers are checked in and sitting in their seats the flight is not overbooked.
  • mal 16 Apr 2017 01:59:16 29,326 posts
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    Well, that's what United should have done in this case. They should have known they had some staff that needed to travel, and stopped people at the gates. If staff came in after people were already on the plane, they should have been given their bus fare and told to sod off.

    Edit: I guess you could say that the plane wasn't overbooked before the extra staff turned up. That's a different defintion of the term I'm aware of, and the way I understand it is that almost all planes, especially intercontinental ones are overbooked, in that they sell more seats than the plane has, because they know a percentage will defer. Doesn't matter if everyone's seated or if there are free seats or whatever, it's how the customer list looks before the plane has even started to be prepared.

    Edited by mal at 02:03:06 16-04-2017
  • Derblington 16 Apr 2017 09:31:10 31,801 posts
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    richardiox wrote:
    Putting legality aside for a second, just ethically speaking, you're basically on the side of the company that firstly asked a paying customer to leave the plane for a reason that was nothing to do with him and then when he didn't comply they called in airport security to remove him by force.

    That makes you sound like an arsehole. You're wording and phrases like "I'm sure the Dr will get a good payout" don't help.
    Err, no I'm not. I replied to Tonka about them being legally allowed to remove him from the plane and he wanted an explanation, so I typed one. That doesn't mean I support their actions.

    United fucked up. They shouldn't have ever let the passengers on board the flight before they had the 4 seats they needed. The gov DOT regulations state that the correct procedure to bump passengers is at the gate (though whether being on a stationary plane at the gate is actually any different I'm not sure), and in failing to conduct the process there everything that happened after, as far as I'm concerned, is essentially their fault. It should and could have all been avoided. If nothing else, when they got no volunteers at $400 at the gate, raise it to $800 there too - don't wait until the plane had boarded for that. When that doesn't work, raise it again. Either way, whatever happens you're still at the gate and no-one's getting injured in tight spaces.

    Also, I didn't use the term "payout". If you want to quote me, go ahead, but actually quote me - I've been saying the same thing about this from the early pages of the thread.
  • Derblington 16 Apr 2017 09:40:23 31,801 posts
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    twelveways wrote:
    There are tons of lawyers out there who state that UA shouldn't have removed him. But yeah, your unnamed source is obviously much better than the hundreds of articles that come up when you Google it.

    And yeah, it obviously had nothing to do with them saving money...
    My "unnamed source" is actually multiple, from the hundreds of articles that have been published since the incident occurred. I apologise I haven't been noting names from every article I've read on the subject. There are disagreements on almost every aspect of the whole event, by lawyers. I've read plenty for and against each, I'm just not picking one as gospel because it matches my personal view and outright ignoring the rest. The fact that it's debated suggests that it's not as clear cut as 'he had a ticket and therefor had the right to fly'.

    I wasn't saying that they weren't saving some money by putting their crew on their flight rather than getting other transport - this isn't something that is unique to United, every airline would do it as a first option. We don't know the circumstances around the reserve crew or alternate transport so there's no way we can state the absolute priority getting them on this flight was.
    I was simply saying they didn't "have his face smashed in", as you put it. It wasn't a malicious attack from the flight crew.
  • Derblington 16 Apr 2017 09:47:37 31,801 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    By reading what other travel experts say.

    An overbooked flight has people turned away at the check in counter. I know that from personal experience btw. If all paying customers are checked in and sitting in their seats the flight is not overbooked.
    They did this at the gate, which is the correct procedure. They offered $400 and no-one took it.
    Then they let the plane board. Then they offered $800 and no-one took it. Why this wasn't done at the gate, or the reason for the second offer overall isn't stated anywhere. We need that info to properly understand the situation - there's still a lot of bits of info that haven't been reported.
    Then they picked people "at random", which ended up being two couples. Dr Dao and his wife were the second.

    The "overbooked" term is contested a lot, and I guess this could be one of the technicalities that is used in court. The impression I have from all of the reading of the situation is that the plane wasn't overbooked in the sense that they didn't have more tickets than seats, but as soon as the reserve crew were assigned the flight it becomes the same issue which is why it's being called that.
  • Nazo 16 Apr 2017 09:55:34 1,018 posts
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    I wonder what this will do to his reputation as a doctor, I've a lot of sympathy for the guy but I don't think I'd want him treating me after seeing those vids.
  • Godofporn 16 Apr 2017 09:59:05 6,737 posts
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    @Derblington ok
  • Tonka 16 Apr 2017 11:13:21 29,676 posts
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    I think united (or rather the outsourced crew they are using to save costs from what it seems) called the flight overbooked because they (mistakenly from what I've read) thought that would make it okay to boot people without any further reasons.

    And again, overbooking is handled at the check in counter, not the gate. And absolutely not inside the plane by reasons that should be blatantly obvious.

    As for the captain having the rights to have anyone removed I strongly doubt they can do that without giving a reason. It has to be wrt the safety of the flight doesn't it?
  • Derblington 16 Apr 2017 12:05:54 31,801 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    And again, overbooking is handled at the check in counter, not the gate. And absolutely not inside the plane by reasons that should be blatantly obvious.
    Nope.

    "DOT rules require airlines to seek out people who are willing to give up their seats for compensation before bumping anyone involuntarily. Here's how this works. At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold."
    That's from the transport government website.

    Note, richardiox, that I still don't agree with the course of action taken, nor the result of injury to Dr Dao.

    Edited by Derblington at 12:15:44 16-04-2017
  • Tonka 16 Apr 2017 13:34:41 29,676 posts
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    Overbooked by the gate? That sounds really weird. Makes their decision to let people board even stranger since that really weakened their case.

    It also makes flying even more shit than it already is. I was told that as long as I have checked in before arriving at the airport I was sure not to get left behind.
  • funkstar 16 Apr 2017 13:49:21 3,280 posts
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    Think about it, if everyone checked in online then where would they handle overbooking?
  • mrpon 22 Apr 2017 17:20:25 35,330 posts
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    Now with added hit me!
  • mal 22 Apr 2017 18:43:20 29,326 posts
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    To avoid anyone else having to look it up, a 'stroller' is apparently american for a 'pushchair'.
  • JoeBlade 22 Apr 2017 19:00:29 4,440 posts
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    mal wrote:
    To avoid anyone else having to look it up, a 'stroller' is apparently american for a 'pushchair'.
    Heh, I was confuzzled by that as well :)

    According to Google it also means street child in South African, so depending on her nationality this story could have an even more shocking twist to it.
  • Mola_Ram 23 Apr 2017 07:05:48 20,831 posts
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    Eh, it seems fairly bad, but that's one of those things where I wouldn't really want to judge unless I'd seen the whole incident (and maybe not even then). From experience, arguments like these have a way of escalating with no one person really responsible for said escalation.
  • Deleted user 23 April 2017 07:19:35
    Sounds like she was given permission to see if she could get the stroller on (that permission apparently shouldn't have been given). Mr stroppy came along and told her she couldn't and wanted it from her. She refused. He pulled it from her, hitting her and just missing her baby with it. She was later taken off the flight against her will. AA then upgraded her to first class on a later flight.

    You could argue she should have ignored the first person and obeyed him. But then in the clip, he comes across as an aggressive jerk who could and should have dealt with both incidents more professionally and i don't know... Nicely.
  • JoeBlade 23 Apr 2017 11:50:30 4,440 posts
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    @Mola_Ram You have a point, I agree the woman could very well have been in the wrong too. We don't know how she behaved before the start of the video.

    Nonetheless, that flight attendant hit her, nearly potentially injuring an infant in the process and then proceeded to encourage violence from another passenger. His overall aggressive stance is unacceptable from service personnel as far as I'm concerned.
    Bar really extreme circumstances what he's done is pretty much an open request to getting fired on the spot and being dragged to court IMO.
  • Mola_Ram 23 Apr 2017 12:17:50 20,831 posts
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    JoeBlade wrote:
    @Mola_Ram You have a point, I agree the woman could very well have been in the wrong too. We don't know how she behaved before the start of the video.

    Nonetheless, that flight attendant hit her, nearly potentially injuring an infant in the process and then proceeded to encourage violence from another passenger. His overall aggressive stance is unacceptable from service personnel as far as I'm concerned.
    Bar really extreme circumstances what he's done is pretty much an open request to getting fired on the spot and being dragged to court IMO.
    Not hit her. *Allegedly* hit her. Unless there's more information been released since that article came out. Maybe it was an accident. Maybe he pushed the stroller more forcefully than intended and it bumped her.

    It's not to say that the employee did nothing wrong. At the very least anyone involved in customer service should be trained to avoid escalating situations like that. But the full story isn't there, and aside from the video (which only shows the aftermath) there isn't much to go on.
  • JoeBlade 23 Apr 2017 12:42:52 4,440 posts
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    @Mola_Ram It's not just the video, there are two (or three? can't be arsed to reread) witness reports in the article as well that state him hitting her.
  • funkstar 23 Apr 2017 13:01:00 3,280 posts
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    Im pretty sure the witness reports said he hit her with the stroller as he was pulling it out of her hands, and also was very close to hitting the baby
  • drhickman1983 23 Apr 2017 13:09:46 5,994 posts
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    Yeah, the reports make it sound like she was hit when the stroller was wrenched free from her grasp. I do think there's a slight difference between accidentally hitting somebody and purposely hitting somebody. Not that it excuses the attendant for being aggressive, and he should be reprimanded.
  • Mola_Ram 24 Apr 2017 08:31:22 20,831 posts
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    I heard from an eyewitness that he lifted the stroller over his head, said "I got your stroller RIGHT HERE, bint", and smashed her face in with it. And then went after the baby. Thank God he was stopped!

    EDIT: I've no idea why an American would describe an irritating woman as a "bint", but hey, that's what I heard

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 08:37:14 24-04-2017
  • drhickman1983 24 Apr 2017 08:41:34 5,994 posts
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    Onlooker Jim Ross was heard to exclaim "dear god, not the steel stroller!"

    Edited by drhickman1983 at 08:41:53 24-04-2017
  • nickthegun 24 Apr 2017 08:46:51 78,318 posts
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    OH MAH GAWD! OH. MAH. GAWD!
  • Jono62 27 Apr 2017 08:35:53 22,599 posts
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39729265
  • Deleted user 27 April 2017 08:47:15
    Ten grand? Fuck that, I'd sit tight and hope a few million would come in exchange for a few teeth
  • mangojoe 27 Apr 2017 09:30:53 2,341 posts
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    Id be happy to be dragged off by the cock for that tbh.
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