Page 32 • Star Wars Battlefront II • Gaming • General Gaming • Eurogamer.net

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 15:55:38 35,161 posts
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the_milkybar_kid wrote:
It wouldn't take much to implement a system that says, 'you've spent an extortionate amount of cash on virtual fuck all. Please contact our customer service to unlock our account'.

They're already making more from microtranasctions than from the games themselves, because they've got no regulation and no obligation to look after their customers, they'll just leave the infinite money cheat on. Shit does need regulation.

Taht won't happen, in the same way a store isn't going to limit how much you can spend in them.

There will be age ratings, drop rate requirements, etc, but no-one is going to block purchases. That's for parental controls and credit card companies, etc.

Deleted user 23 November 2017 15:58:47

DUFFMAN5 wrote:

Derblington wrote:
I can't see loot boxes being banned, personally. Things will need to change though, and that's fine.
I would say this.

As would I. Change in some form or another will happen, but lot boxes won't be banned.

KD 23 Nov 2017 16:29:16 3,575 posts
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So many people cant control the need to buy loot boxes or blind packs, its how they making so much off people who really need help. A restriction on an account would be great, hey you spent Ł100 this week alone warning or something you can set yourself and maybe email someone you know who can help.

Its easy to blame the people but its so easy to access and people can be thick as shit or in worst case literally addicted. Cant stop them just like in casino's but a good will company will try and help however they can.

Then you got EA and force feeding it to people in FUT or BF2, you can only play this game with progress through those systems and the engineered pack/box opening which I bet has had all sorts of experts to devise the most endorphine boosting animations.

It does indeed suck balls.

SolidSCB 23 Nov 2017 16:44:01 16,771 posts
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Obviously won't happen for a multitude of reasons, but I'd make stuff like this subject to a credit check.

It's sad, but I'm not sure even automatically filing any game with this sort of rubbish under a pegi 18 would deter them that much.

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 16:48:37 35,161 posts
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There are no good will companies. Valve and Blizzard are the typical industry darlings but neither are turning down your money. EA aren't doing anything different in that regard, and they aren't forcing anything. Everyone hates EA, and that's cool by me, but it's also clouding a lot of judgement when talking about this stuff (not that it's surprising they're in the spotlight at the moment).

There's an important distinction between a generic loot box system used by many types of games and the garbled mess of a design that SWBF2 used. People are typically talking about the latter right now as a blanket example of the system because it's national news but it's not and shouldn't ever be the generic example. Some people just absolutely despise the former, and again that's cool, but they aren't all terrible and do serve an important purpose in certain types of titles.

There's also no evidence that any companies are making "loads of money" from people with addiction problems, which is what everyone seems to care most about when talking about this stuff. A few people are going to get themselves into trouble over it, and kids too, and that's all shitty and needs work. But the vast majority of money from loot boxed reward systems are from "Whales" and those people are actually ok with it, whether you agree or not.

KD 23 Nov 2017 16:52:25 3,575 posts
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Are you paid to lobby for them? (joke)

TPReview 23 Nov 2017 16:54:23 1,380 posts
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I was firmly in the 'this story is massively overblown camp' and there was a lot of ridiculous ideas floating about to do with the heroes or how much of a disadvantage you would be at if you didn't spend money or thousands of hours (me and a friend are regularly in the top 3 despite basically having no star cards because we've bought most of the heroes instead).

That being said, the progress in this game is undeniably broken. Star card packs are so expensive and in each one you get so little that will actually be useful, then it costs a bunch to craft the cards you really want. This is a situation where I definitely think Call of Duty has the right idea with progression based on how much you use each weapon/class and loot boxes used for fun cosmetic stuff. WWII has messed that up because their loot isn't fun enough, but it's at least easy to ignore if you don't care.

In Battlefront 2 it feels like there is no progression now because progress is glacial.

mickerty 23 Nov 2017 16:58:57 345 posts
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After spending more time with this I am not too impressed with the maps and spawning. I'm an old hand at DICE shooters and I just can't survive for any decent length of time. The objective mode (strike?) is clearly the best.

Starfighter assault is amazing. It's starting to click and when you get a string of kills it's so satisfying. Its genuinely thrilling to dogfight around spaceships and asteroids. Ive been seeing more players with starcards in this mode than others though.

Rogueywon 23 Nov 2017 16:59:25 12,387 posts
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Derblington wrote:
There are no good will companies.

QFT.

Companies exist to make money. Indeed, if they're publicly listed companies (and of the big players, I think only Valve isn't), their fiduciary duty to shareholders means that they have a legal responsibility to make as much money as possible. Microsoft are not your friends. Sony are not your friends. Nintendo are not your friends. Valve are not your friends. EA are not your friends. Activision are not your friends. Your relationship with them is purely commercial.

This isn't actually a bad thing per se. The reason the video games industry is a big as it is can be put down to the fact that people can make a lot of money out of it. The thing to remember, however, is that different companies have different approaches to making as much money as possible. The trick - as consumer - is to reward the good behaviours and punish the bad.

Different companies place differing levels of value on preserving their reputation. Reputation matters; it has a direct impact on your earnings potential. Some companies see this and shy away from aggressive profit-maximisation tactics as a result, as they see them as detrimental to their long-term financial interest. Other companies - and EA are pretty much the prime example here - are more willing to take reputational hits on the chin and take the quick profit, trusting to the fact that historically, gamers have had short memories and have been poor at sticking to boycotts (see the famous Modern Warfare 2 Steam boycott picture). The postponement of the Battlefiend 2 microtransactions is a symptom of what happens when a company with a low tolerance for reputational damage (Disney) goes into business with one with a much higher tolerance (EA).

Consumer action by gamers seems to be getting more effective, both in terms of boycotts and publicity. Battlefront 2 has underperformed its prequel in sales and has also done quite a bit of brand damage. Keeping up that kind of pressure will get better behaviours from developers and publishers.

The fear will really set in if contagion from this (either regulatory or consumer-driven) spreads to FUT, which is EA's premium cash-cow.

KD 23 Nov 2017 17:17:33 3,575 posts
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The fact no companies are good is why I cant tell anyone to buy this game or Forza 7 or anything with game mechanics tied to blind chance. Nevermind if money is even involved, its just training wheels for youngsters to become addicts to blind chance (gambling).

Fruit Mahine Sim on Amstrad cpc 464 did it to me and after a youth of wasting money on real fruit machines I just fear it'll happen to others.

Dirtbox 23 Nov 2017 17:41:08 92,600 posts
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Derblington wrote:
There are no good will companies. Valve and Blizzard are the typical industry darlings but neither are turning down your money. EA aren't doing anything different in that regard, and they aren't forcing anything. Everyone hates EA, and that's cool by me, but it's also clouding a lot of judgement when talking about this stuff (not that it's surprising they're in the spotlight at the moment).

There's an important distinction between a generic loot box system used by many types of games and the garbled mess of a design that SWBF2 used. People are typically talking about the latter right now as a blanket example of the system because it's national news but it's not and shouldn't ever be the generic example. Some people just absolutely despise the former, and again that's cool, but they aren't all terrible and do serve an important purpose in certain types of titles.

There's also no evidence that any companies are making "loads of money" from people with addiction problems, which is what everyone seems to care most about when talking about this stuff. A few people are going to get themselves into trouble over it, and kids too, and that's all shitty and needs work. But the vast majority of money from loot boxed reward systems are from "Whales" and those people are actually ok with it, whether you agree or not.

The thing you seem to be constantly missing is that while they're obviously in the business to make money, EA is unethical.

Edited by Dirtbox at 17:45:40 23-11-2017

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 17:43:50 35,161 posts
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How so?

Dirtbox 23 Nov 2017 17:45:53 92,600 posts
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You know full well that they have the metrics to determine exactly how long the average player will play a game before moving on, so they placed much of the content just out of reach without paying for more loot boxes.

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 18:16:21 35,161 posts
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I imagine all dev have at least predicted metrics for player journeys and retention, etc. I don't believe its quite as simple as you describe though, as the player calculated numbers aren't just outside of casual reach, they're wildly overinflated imo.

Dirtbox 23 Nov 2017 18:18:45 92,600 posts
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And obfuscating content you've paid for behind a substantial luck based paywall is unethical.

captbirdseye 23 Nov 2017 18:20:17 11,190 posts
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You can chuck CIG in with EA for shitty practices by selling virtual shit for thousands of pounds.

Edited by captbirdseye at 18:21:22 23-11-2017

Dirtbox 23 Nov 2017 18:23:26 92,600 posts
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Sure can. I'm not saying EA is alone in this, they just fucked with entirely the wrong IP to push it.

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 18:28:58 35,161 posts
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I'd say it was poor design, rather than unethical; there shouldn't be any obfuscation in game design period. I'm not a fan of the randomisation of the player progression either, at all, but I'm not sure I'd agree that aspect was unethical either.

Increase the earn rate of credits and crafting parts via player performance and loot boxes and that issue would largely go away as crafting would be easier to target and achieve.

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 18:30:00 35,161 posts
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CIG?

edit: Star Citizen? I didn't know who made it.

Edited by Derblington at 18:31:37 23-11-2017

Dirtbox 23 Nov 2017 19:26:59 92,600 posts
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Derblington wrote:
I'd say it was poor design, rather than unethical; there shouldn't be any obfuscation in game design period. I'm not a fan of the randomisation of the player progression either, at all, but I'm not sure I'd agree that aspect was unethical either.

Increase the earn rate of credits and crafting parts via player performance and loot boxes and that issue would largely go away as crafting would be easier to target and achieve.

Oh no, the obfuscation is only in terms of what you're allowed to have, you are made acutely aware of what you're missing out on when you get nailed the 1000th time by someone with better gear than you. And the game design was exactly weighted in that way, it wasn't some arbitrary oversight, that is precisely how they designed it to be.

MrFlay 23 Nov 2017 19:30:19 4,670 posts
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It doesn't sound like it will be possible to fix this game. The progression system sounds truly appalling.

What could they realistically do to make it more palatable?

How the hell are newbies in 3/6/9 months supposed to enjoy the game?

StarchildHypocrethes 23 Nov 2017 19:37:27 33,974 posts
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They just need to nerf some if the starfighter cards imo. The star cards don't make a huge difference in a grunt firefight, so n00bs should be ok as long as they can shoot straight.

Unlocking the actual base abilities only costs a small amount. They could unlock a handful for each class from the off I guess, then use the current setup to unlock the rest and upgrade them. A tweak to the number of credits earned per match wouldn't hurt either.

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 19:56:02 35,161 posts
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It actually wouldn't take that much to fix the current progression issues, imo, but it depends if that'd be enough. The problem is that, as you yourself highlight, the perception is that it's flat out broken beyond repair and it may need a complete overhaul to alleviate that impression.

The cards themselves don't actually weight the combat very much at all - gun skill will win in the majority of situations - but when you see someone sporting something higher you assume that's why you lost. And you can never be sure its not because that card *is* better than yours, even if its something as small as their grenade having an extra meter radius. Is that meter the reason he killed you and you didn't kill him; was one of his other cards the difference between the specific outcome, and if it was but you don't have it yet that's not fair, etc.

Edited by Derblington at 20:03:08 23-11-2017

JYM60 23 Nov 2017 19:56:20 19,085 posts
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I can't see how they can nerf stuff people have paid money for...

What a mess.

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 20:02:36 35,161 posts
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No-ones really paid for anything, as the MTX was pulled before release day, and they don't specifically have to drastically nerf anything, just alter the way you can earn them to level the field.

Balance tweaks aren't out of the question for the betterment of a title regardless of how you get stuff, unless you've specifically been sold something all powerful, which isn't the case here.

Edited by Derblington at 20:07:28 23-11-2017

MrFlay 23 Nov 2017 20:07:45 4,670 posts
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There was a guy streaming on Twitch a few days ago who claimed he spent $7,000 on the game. He tried to get a refund for the game when they turned off microtransactions because he couldn't spend more. The whales exist.

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 20:09:54 35,161 posts
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Fair enough. But they aren't taking anything away from him. A rebalance of items will affect everyone - he'll still have all the things he bought and the benefit that comes with having them.

MrFlay 23 Nov 2017 20:16:16 4,670 posts
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They couldn't make it free to play now but it might happen down the line.

That mobile Star Wars game is to blame for all of this. And those fucking FIFA cards.

Derblington 23 Nov 2017 20:22:23 35,161 posts
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No, they aren't. Loot boxes have been around for a while. Mobile F2P titles kinda need them, other titles really popularised them (hats in Team Fortress 2, for example).

Boogie's actually got a video up on the progress of DLC and MTX. Worth a watch if you're interested, it's not a long one.
Think back to the start of the last gen. when Bethesda released the horse armour and everyone was up in arms about the relative value of a skin, and yet now the things that everyone wants and praises from loot boxes are purely cosmetics (skins, VO lines, title cards, etc).

Rodney 23 Nov 2017 20:28:29 5,029 posts
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Derblington wrote:

nickthegun wrote:
I think if a game you've been playing for the last 20 years suddenly gets a slot machine bolted onto the side of it, you absolutely can.
No. The game isn't forcing you to spend money on it just because it exists. You need to control your impulses, or at least take responsibility if you can't and figure out a way to live with it.

But we know some people will financially ruin themselves due to gambling addiction because they can't control their impulses.
It's an impulse so strong for some people they will risk ruining their life, and stealing from their own family, just to briefly satisfy it.

In a sense you are right, the individual is ultimately responsible for each decision they make but for some people their own pyschology is stacked against them - and EA are intentionally exploiting that fact. That is a predatory business practice. Not to mention this a game marketed towards children!

And loot boxes in principle are fundamentally anti consumer in any case. Fucking paying money for a CHANCE of getting what I want. I can't imagine any other consumer scenario where I would want that system - drop Ł1k down at a shop and receive a randomly selected TV - so why would I want it in a game. It is obnoxiously transparent in its intention to squeeze more money from me and hopefully get me hooked. Fuck that.

Star Wars Battlefront II • Page 32