Rodney wrote:I was being sarcastic with the "surprise about addictive and compulsive behaviours" but I don't doubt a percentage are genuine concerns. The vast majority aren't though, and are just using it as a way to hurt EA (specifically, but other companies too). It won't, not really. EA were big and successful before loot boxes and will be after. How should I address your concerns? What do you expected me to do? I've agreed with a lot of them from the start. I'll say it again: I think the progression system in SWBF2 is bad; I don't think paid loot boxes should ever be included in kid focused games (and I think SWBF2 falls under that despite the PEGI 16 rating); I think the industry needs to regulate loot boxes so that their inclusion is surfaced before point of sale, item drop rates should be clearly stated, rewards should exclude gameplay affecting items, etc, plus any other improvements people deem necessary. The whole system can and should be made cleaner. The government response is only necessary in driving change, but I don't think we should put our trust in people that largely know nothing about the industry or its users in order to actually decide the extent of that change. They are rallying a cause based very heavily, again, on one title. The fallout will be far wider reaching (not necessarily a bad thing, per se, I'm just stating the fact). Certain gaming genres, like F2P rely pretty heavily on loot box systems as the sole source of income. You'll literally end companies by banning them (though I don't think that'll happen), not to mention the crossover that will occur to TCGs and things. There will be repercussions in places that we haven't thought of. You feel the entire concept is inherently flawed, fair enough. Some people just dislike the entire concept, also fair enough. Some games do it much better than others and get a pass - people generally don't complain about Overwatch or Team Fortress 2, for example. I found this quite interesting, especially in regards to intended design and turnover rates (its a short read of 20-something Twitter posts): http://dulfy.net/2017/11/15/swtor-former-swtor-dev-damion-schubert-talks-loot-boxes/ |
Star Wars Battlefront II • Page 34
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Derblington 35,161 posts
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SennaCujo 386 posts
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Registered 6 years agoTPReview wrote:
Exactly this. By far the best post I have read on here!
@aaron0288 I've been fairly keen to defend EA through most of this too, but I don't work for DICE. I just think the progression system is bad, but other than that EA haven't really done anything wrong that I can see. I hate these internet hate trains and the sense of entitlement some people feel where instead of just not buying something they don't like, people feel like it's their duty to turn other people off the game too through misinformation or exaggeration. It drowns out the real complaints and forces companies to avoid trying new things for the fear of it. I hated it when it happened to the original idea for the Xbox One, I hated it in Star Wars Galaxies (the moaning that led to the changes that ruined the game), and I hate it here. -
Huggybear 1,807 posts
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Registered 19 years agoDerblington wrote:
And now the people have spoken: businesses should treat their customers with respect and not as if they're a resource to be milked to the hilt.
Its weird because its a company doing what's best for the company, like all companies do. There's nothing unique about it. It's become one of the biggest companies in gaming by running its business in its interests. Oh, the horror.
I personally strongly disagree with the neoliberal idea that their only responsibility is to generate profit for their owners / shareholders. Businesses cannot exist without employees, customers and a society to bind them all together.
Things just reached a tipping point, and unfortunately for EA they were the ones who took a step too far and became the target for a much wider dissatisfaction. This is way the world works. I'm pretty sure Harvey Weinstein privately thinks it's "unfair" that he became the poster boy for sexual harassment in the movie industry, when it's been around for as long as there has been a movie industry. -
mothercruncher 19,475 posts
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Registered 15 years agoHuggybear wrote:
Exactly this. By far the best post I have read on here
Derblington wrote:
And now the people have spoken: businesses should treat their customers with respect and not as if they're a resource to be milked to the hilt.
Its weird because its a company doing what's best for the company, like all companies do. There's nothing unique about it. It's become one of the biggest companies in gaming by running its business in its interests. Oh, the horror.
I personally strongly disagree with the neoliberal idea that their only responsibility is to generate profit for their owners / shareholders. Businesses cannot exist without employees, customers and a society to bind them all together.
Things just reached a tipping point, and unfortunately for EA they were the ones who took a step too far and became the target for a much wider dissatisfaction. This is way the world works. I'm pretty sure Harvey Weinstein privately thinks it's "unfair" that he became the poster boy for sexual harassment in the movie industry, when it's been around for as long as there has been a movie industry. -
harriselhoff 473 posts
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Registered 13 years ago@Derblington I don't recall saying that anyone blindly followed their employer's way of thinking.
I thought that what I said was that is is relevant that someone who is defending said employer just happens to work for them. -
SennaCujo 386 posts
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Registered 6 years ago@mothercruncher Still the annoying little retard I see -) -
mothercruncher 19,475 posts
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Registered 15 years agoIt is relevant, but most of us know that and factor that in already Harris. -
mothercruncher 19,475 posts
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Registered 15 years agoSennaCujo wrote:
Exactly this. By far the best post I have read on here!
@mothercruncher Still the annoying little retard I see -) -
Derblington wrote:
Again, there's no actual benefit to these systems - unless you just like gambling, but then why not just play on your local's fruit machine or go to the casino - they don't complain because it does not directly affect them.
You feel the entire concept is inherently flawed, fair enough. Some people just dislike the entire concept, also fair enough. Some games do it much better than others and get a pass - people generally don't complain about Overwatch or Team Fortress 2, for example.
I bought Forza 7 recently and the loot boxes affect me somewhat, but not to the extent that I would regret buying the game. It's also the first game I purchased that has loot boxes so for me this is still a new experience. And not one I particularly enjoy - it distracts from the core gameplay experience, and it does affect how you play the game (loot crates yield bonus mods you can add to a race, you increase your payout by meeting the mods criteria) because before each race you will want to consider picking the most suitable mods - and once you run out, you'll have to waste in game credits buying more mods via loot crates.
I just don't see a benefit, unless the developer thought the gameplay is not engaging enough so let's add cheap thrills in the form of a lottery. If you're into that sort of thing, of course.
(I think) I've also read in this thread CoD WW2 mentioned, and the way its implementation of lootboxes doesn't really affect you. I mean, they drop those boxes right in front of you during live gameplay - sure it doesn't give you a disadvantage per se, but who in their right mind will want to see a loot box dropping from the sky in the middle of a beach landing?
BUT - I'd rather not see this implemented in every single other AAA game, and especially not the way EA/DICE have done it, in this particular example.
All the reports and videos of its implementation put me right off buying it (am not impartial to a bit of Star Wars myself). Lost sale not because "other players put me off it while riding the hate train", but because it just doesn't seem like a fun game to play. And that's still why we play games, right? To have fun? I dunno, maybe it's just my idea of what constitutes 'fun' that's antiquated. I would really hope not though, for the sake of my favourite hobby. -
mothercruncher wrote:
I for one didn't know, and can now understand much better why he posts that way.
It is relevant, but most of us know that and factor that in already Harris. -
Derblington 35,161 posts
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Registered 17 years ago@harriselhoff
If you're not suggesting my opinion is swayed by an employer, how is it relevant? -
Derblington 35,161 posts
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Registered 17 years ago@SYS64738
Not played Forza so don't know first hand, but anything that affects gameplay is generally a poor addition. That's a large part of the problem with SWBF2.
CoDWW2 does drop them during gameplay but it's a social space, not the campaign or MP matches. It's like the Tower in Destiny. It's a weird visual but I guess they wanted to make it something unique and interactive rather than just cycling through menus (which they still do in other places anyway). -
@Derblington
I could just about accept using these kind of mechanics if they're limited to skins and stuff and hidden in a separate section of the game, like GTA5 does. But it's also a much harder sell if a game is, by my own standards, very expensive - in the case of Forza it was £50 (for the standard edition, mind).
For that kind of wedge of notes I do expect the full package to be honest. Funny thing is that in Forza 7 there aren't yet any proper MT's - I wonder if Microsoft/Turn 10 got cold feet implementing those in the aftermath of the SWBF2 drama. It's just more idiotic though as they're causing a grind *AND* the dev/publisher doesn't make additional money from MT's (although I imagine they'll drop in eventually once the dust around this has settled).
Maybe the problem is that I'm old enough to remember, say, the old Codemasters games where cheats and other easter eggs were included in the game for free. But I suppose those who get into gaming nowadays must feel this is all par-for-the-course, and that makes me a little bit sad.
Edited by SYS64738 at 09:07:57 24-11-2017 -
technotica 621 posts
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Registered 12 years agoOh man that starfighter mode! Now that is an awesome mode, I think that will be my main gametype for now! -
TPReview 1,380 posts
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Registered 9 years agoSYS64738 wrote:
Derblington wrote:
This is what I mean by misinformation. In COD the crates aren't dropped in the middle of a beach landing game, just in a social space that is really only there for stuff like that, it's never a distraction.
I bought Forza 7 recently and the loot boxes affect me somewhat, but not to the extent that I would regret buying the game. It's also the first game I purchased that has loot boxes so for me this is still a new experience. And not one I particularly enjoy - it distracts from the core gameplay experience, and it does affect how you play the game (loot crates yield bonus mods you can add to a race, you increase your payout by meeting the mods criteria) because before each race you will want to consider picking the most suitable mods - and once you run out, you'll have to waste in game credits buying more mods via loot crates.
(I think) I've also read in this thread CoD WW2 mentioned, and the way its implementation of lootboxes doesn't really affect you. I mean, they drop those boxes right in front of you during live gameplay - sure it doesn't give you a disadvantage per se, but who in their right mind will want to see a loot box dropping from the sky in the middle of a beach landing?
BUT - I'd rather not see this implemented in every single other AAA game, and especially not the way EA/DICE have done it, in this particular example.
All the reports and videos of its implementation put me right off buying it (am not impartial to a bit of Star Wars myself). Lost sale not because "other players put me off it while riding the hate train", but because it just doesn't seem like a fun game to play. And that's still why we play games, right? To have fun? I dunno, maybe it's just my idea of what constitutes 'fun' that's antiquated. I would really hope not though, for the sake of my favourite hobby.
I've played through Forza 7 and never once ran out of mods, you get loads just as a result of playing the game and they only alter your rewards in terms of credits. If you didn't buy any mods then the normal credits are still plenty enough to buy cars you want.
I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose, but this argument about the bad progression system being tied to RNG is muddied by people saying things that just aren't true as if they're fact. Like when we were told how long it would take to unlock the heroes in bf2 when it really only takes about 20 hours tops, took an hour and a half to unlock the most expensive one without doing anything other than playing the game.
I really like cosmetic loot crates in games like heroes, overwatch, cod, etc but apparently some people who don't play those games have decided its bad for me so want them banned, I'm guessing they'd prefer developers to make money through paying for more dlc or raising game prices? -
Derblington 35,161 posts
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Registered 17 years agoSYS64738 wrote:
Common and valid complaints. I don't think we'll get away from paid online games using MTX though, due to server costs and ongoing maintenance/content additions (where the MTX is replacing typical paid DLC). Loot boxes can earn a lot more money than is required there (see GTA5 MTX exceeding $700 million in the last 12 months) but no-one's going to turn them off again once they've covered those costs.
@Derblington
I could just about accept using these kind of mechanics if they're limited to skins and stuff and hidden in a separate section of the game, like GTA5 does. But it's also a much harder sell if a game is, by my own standards, very expensive - in the case of Forza it was £50 (for the standard edition, mind).
Forza launched before SWBF2 so it's not a result of that, and they have confirmed they will turn on paid transactions at a later date. -
I did run out of mods pretty quickly, and I also found the payout pretty stingy so far in Forza 7 (without mods that is). Maybe I'm not playing the game "right" then, but why make this such a needless grind? There are over 700 cars in the game, even with more generous payouts it'll still be quite a task to obtain many of them. Just don't see the benefit to artificially reduce payouts, just to allow players to increase them again through mods. I actually like what mods do (offer specific challenges during races) but not how they're implemented - and you can clearly see MTs were the primary driver why they're there.
As for CoD, I based my comment on a video included in an article on the front page. To me it looked like those crates dropped during gameplay. Maybe I misremember it but wasn't that also the point of the article. -
foster2007 336 posts
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Registered 14 years agoFeels good having not bought this garbage, mario odyssee was the better purchase of the two -
@Derblington yeah, what I meant was Microsoft were likely delaying the date they switch on MTs as a result of this further.
Not a fan of these bait and switch tactics either, as a consumer you can't really tell these days that what you're getting on day one is the final product. -
SennaCujo 386 posts
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Registered 6 years ago''Tis a fine looking game though !! -
US and UK authorities do not consider loot boxes as gambling.
"US authorities recently decided that games using loot crates do not constitute gambling because players do get some kind of reward when they acquire the boxes.
In the UK, the Gambling Commission took a similar stance and said the boxes did not come under its control because rewards were usable only in the game."
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/technology-42110066
Edited by Ragnor at 15:50:35 24-11-2017 -
KD 3,575 posts
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Registered 16 years agoAs people who been gaming for years get into seats of power maybe they might have a different opinion and cause a change in that stance.
Imagine if a Prime Minister or others in power had a child who charged a few hundred or thousand behind their back on Fifa FUT packs, might sway opinion. All maybes but we can only hope something changes soon.
Always a fun google search here
Edited by KD at 15:35:43 24-11-2017 -
Derblington 35,161 posts
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Registered 17 years agoNone of them claim addiction though, just stupidity. They all say the “kids” didn’t realise they were spending real money so just continued to play rather than they knew but just couldn’t help themselves. -
KD 3,575 posts
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Registered 16 years agoWhen did a goverment use common sense for everything? Also it was just a thought heh.
Edited by KD at 15:48:50 24-11-2017 -
Derblington 35,161 posts
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Registered 17 years agoSorry, I was talking about the google search. The first 3 pages are the same 3 stories, all of which the kids claim innocence - they asked for passwords for iPads or whatever and spent loads of money not realizing that it was costing real money. None are addiction stories.
There is the potential for that but they don’t exist yet.
Edited by Derblington at 15:53:55 24-11-2017 -
Dirtbox 92,599 posts
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Registered 19 years agoDerbs, I think you're having a bit of a disconnect here.
This type of corporate mentality shouldn't be normalised and really shouldn't be defended. Yes they're entitled to make money, they're entitled to try the games as a service bullshit, but making a star wars game of all things pay to win on top of a gambling aspect shouldn't be remotely legal for the age group. And yes, it is pay to win, there are god only knows how many videos out there describing in exquisite detail just how much of an advantage some of the things you can unlock are. -
I don't think I am. I've said time and again that the SWBF2 stuff is a problem and shouldn't be there.
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