Catalan Independence Referendum • Page 6
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riceNpea 942 posts
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Registered 13 years ago -
VanillaLake 684 posts
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Registered 7 years ago@riceNpea Haha, yep, many people mess up, like in Spanish. Do you live in Spain? -
riceNpea 942 posts
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Malek86 12,331 posts
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Registered 14 years agoFrom my short experience living in Spain (three months in Seville for work), I noticed that most of the people there are really only good with Spanish and don't seem to actually know English, or at least care enough to use it, even when a foreigner is around. So much for a second language.
I hope Catalonia is better with Spanish than the rest of Spain is with English. -
Armoured_Bear 31,233 posts
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Registered 10 years agoVanillaLake wrote:
I’m not being an arsehole, just pointing out your repeated falsehoods.
@riceNpea Don't worry, he is being an arsehole to me.
Where did you learn English, in between? -
Armoured_Bear 31,233 posts
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Registered 10 years agoMalek86 wrote:
The level of English in cities such as Barcelona and Madrid seems to have hugely improved in the last 10 years, Andalucia is a different place
From my short experience living in Spain (three months in Seville for work), I noticed that most of the people there are really only good with Spanish and don't seem to actually know English, or at least care enough to use it, even when a foreigner is around. So much for a second language.
I hope Catalonia is better with Spanish than the rest of Spain is with English..gif)
Still miles ahead of the Brits... -
Armoured_Bear 31,233 posts
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Registered 10 years agoriceNpea wrote:
Nah, was at vanillalake with his "you're screwed without Catalan in Barcelona" nonsense
Armoured_Bear wrote:
I hope you weren't directing your 'horseshit' my way
VanillaLake wrote:
Horseshit.
@SpaceMonkey77 Sometimes I get tired of being looked down upon by some users that think that they have the right to just because.
@riceNpea
To me that is understandable but every time that I've been there everything was given to me in Catalan. All signs and warnings once you have left the airport are also written in Catalan, sometimes in English. Spanish is totally ignored like if it was a prohibited language, it's shocking.
Half of Barcelona doesn’t speak Catalan you nitwit, when you walk down the street you tend to hear more Spanish than Catalan.
Every single Catalan speaker in Barcelona is bilingual and speaks perfect Spanish.
I agree with you in that respect, being Catalan doesn't mean you speak Catalan. It's gets even more complicated because some people in nearby Valencia speak another dialect entirley of Catalan, Valenciana.
However what I would say, being a Spanish national and visiting there many times, is that those who do speak Catalan often, not always, make a point of speaking Catalan in a professional capacity when dealing with customers unless you speak Spanish first, either because they prefer to or they expect the customer to understand. They're not so rude as to answer back in Catalan.
It can give the impression to whoever wants to take it that way that they prefer speaking Catalan over Spanish as it stands out from the norm and therefore leaves a longer lasting impression to visitors who care about such things. I've never had a problem with it because nobody has ever refused to speak Spanish but I do have friends that that has happened to though the circumstances always seems to involve a disagreement so what do they expect
I think Catalans are perfectly entitled to speak Catalan first and switch to Castellano when they realise that the other person isn't a Catalan speaker. -
Rogueywon 12,387 posts
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Registered 16 years agoI've only been to Barcelona twice, both times on business, but on both occasions I was able to handle hotels, restaurants and bars with my sub-GCSE-level Spanish. Meetings were all in English, but that's pretty much normal when you have multiple nationalities present anyway. -
Malek86 12,331 posts
Seen 16 hours ago
Registered 14 years agoPuigdemont is speaking right now. Let's see what happens. I don't expect much though.
Edit: well, he would, but they just delayed the speech by one hour.
Edited by Malek86 at 17:08:42 10-10-2017 -
riceNpea 942 posts
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StaffyDog 1,774 posts
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Registered 9 years agoDidn't know Barcelona was in Catalonia! I'm 55 and still learning something new every now and again. -
Skirlasvoud 4,039 posts
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Registered 11 years agoI find it funny that all of this is happening AFTER I binge-watched a 5-part documentary about the Spanish Civil War.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81RhewkQbOk
I feel like I can understand this conflict better because of it, and why nay and yay-sayers frequently refer to each other as Franco lovers. Catalonia really was kinda its own thing.
Edited by Skirlasvoud at 19:59:21 10-10-2017 -
Malek86 12,331 posts
Seen 16 hours ago
Registered 14 years agoWelp, looks like they took the plunge. Catalonia just declared its own independence.
Civil war incoming?
Edited by Malek86 at 15:28:38 27-10-2017 -
FWB 56,369 posts
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Registered 20 years agoTwats. -
disusedgenius 10,677 posts
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Registered 14 years agoThis all seems like a really, really dumb outcome. -
StarchildHypocrethes 33,974 posts
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Registered 17 years agoShit's about to kick off. -
Just don't get this whole idea of becoming independent (I realise here it's mainly economic selfishness but if they'd think about it it's really only causing problems, some of which have already started to materialise).
Sure, let's all go back to where every village had their own laws and leadership. That went down so well in the past.
People are so f***ing stupid. -
I was fairly ambivalent about Catalonian independence but I can't help but think that both Rajoy and Puigdemont are intransigent militant dickheads who don't give two fucks about what the people want and instead are fixated on imposing their nationalist ideals.
On one hand, I never understood why Rajoy didn't just let the referendum go ahead. If the court hadn't delegitimised it, it might have encouraged the pro-unity voters to appear more numerously, and it didn't sound like there was much popular support for independence.
Then again, Brexit distorted result shows us what can happen when populism takes hold. Direct democracy tends to be skewed towards representing those most emotionally invested in favour of the change, and that's what makes it such a bad idea. It's not that Rajoy believed that the Catalans were opposed to independence - it's that he was worried that they might be in favour of it.
And on a more general note, this whole thing shows why nationalism is such a bad thing. In isolation and in the absence of conflict they're fine, but nationalists tend to be belligerent and demanding, and conflicts between two nationalist movements tend to be akin to an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. They're almost always a precursor to war.
Edited by FilthyAnimal at 16:03:49 27-10-2017 -
Weren't most "No" voters boycotting the referendum? Presumably because it was illegal? I can sort of understand why they did it. To be honest I don't even understand how a referendum with a ~40% turnout was deemed valid. That's just crazy as it *clearly* doesn't represent the majority of the population.
It's all so reckless from the Cat government to pull through with it. You'd think societies in Europe would've wised up after all the history the continent had to endure.
As I said, people... -
They seem quite mad to me. -
Skirlasvoud 4,039 posts
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Registered 11 years agoYou can't just declare independence with a referendum with a 40% turn-out, can you?
If I ask my 40% of my household whether we should secede from the rest of the country, that doesn't allow me to claim the independence of the 20 square feet I'm standing on. If I get arrested for not paying the bills, I can scream "political prisoner" all I want, but I'm still going to go to jail and nobody will take me serious.
Can't Spain just ignore the Catalonian government and continue business as usual? If laws are broken, cite the law and throw the perpetrator in prison. -
@SYS64738 Indeed they did, which is why I've argued that the referendum should have been legitimised and yes, had a minimum turnout imposed upon it.
Rajoy's a fucking idiot. He could have quite easily let the Catalans hold a referendum under the condition of a minimum turnout and two-thirds majority and let Puigdemont embarrass and delegitimise himself. But instead he played the authoritarian card, let his pride get in the way and decided to provoke a fight.
If it comes to civil war now, the blood is as much on Rajoy's hands as it is Puigdemont's.
And the fact that the Catalan opposition decided to boycott the parliamentary vote when their absence was constitutionally counted as an abstention was just fucking stoopid. While the referendum was a bad joke, the parliamentary vote is still valid.
Edited by FilthyAnimal at 16:29:58 27-10-2017 -
And just when the Spanish economy started to pick up. Urgh. -
FWB 56,369 posts
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Registered 20 years agoYou can't just hold referendums and declare independence. They have no legal right to either. -
disusedgenius 10,677 posts
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Registered 14 years agoSkirlasvoud wrote:
You can if there's no rules to the referendum, which is why the Canadian government actually engaged with the Quebec...ers... on that rather than try to just shut it down.
You can't just declare independence with a referendum with a 40% turn-out, can you? -
Skirlasvoud wrote:
Legally, yes. Whether it's wise to do so is another thing. This isn't like throwing a murderer or thief into prison. Murder and theft are socially rejected and incarceration would be met with general approval from society. Prosecuting the perpetrator in this case doesn't have that kind of support. Many Catalans consider the Spanish government to be acting illegally. How many cannot be ascertained as the referendum couldn't be held properly.
Can't Spain just ignore the Catalonian government and continue business as usual? If laws are broken, cite the law and throw the perpetrator in prison.
It's safe to say that support for independence is very strong in Catalonia (single-issue independence parties hold 72 of the 135 seats). -
FWB wrote:
Has any declaration of independence in recent history EVER been legal to begin with?
You can't just hold referendums and declare independence. They have no legal right to either.
The Scottish referendum was the only one that came close.
Edited by FilthyAnimal at 16:37:46 27-10-2017 -
Fake_Blood 11,093 posts
Seen 21 hours ago
Registered 12 years agoI can kind of understand them, as here in belgium we have vastly differing opinions between the dutch and french speaking population. At some point it feels like a broken marriage where you stay together for the kids.
That said, just going fuck off we’re independant now is just crazy and I hope nobody gets hurt. -
FWB 56,369 posts
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Registered 20 years agoYou've made the point yourself by using "recent history". This is not the 17th century anymore. There's a reason this doesn't happen left, right and centre across the EU.
Edited by FWB at 16:42:23 27-10-2017 -
@FilthyAnimal South Sudan achieved independence in 2011 via a legal, constitutional process.
Things haven't been particularly happy since then, with a really unpleasant civil war. But the independence process was legal and was internationally recognised.
.gif)
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