Cryptocurrency (Bitcoin, Ethereum etc) Page 26

  • askew 28 Apr 2021 22:03:39 23,262 posts
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    CrispyXUKTurbo wrote:
    So I switched to binance pro and immediately shit myself
    Massive leverage?
  • Benno 28 Apr 2021 22:52:25 11,831 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    I've seen that, and similar, arguments from crypto lovers a few times and it really holds no water. It's the perfect distillation of nearly everything that is flawed with the crypto argument.

    First, it freely swaps the meaning of value as in "can I get money from this?" to value as in "is this something I appreciate, something that is useful, something that has enhanced what came before it in the value chain?"

    I've bought art that I appreciate. Art that I value, regardless of what I can get for it if I decided to sell it. It's value to me is perfectly independent on what we collectively tell ourself its monetary value is.

    But, if everyone came to their senses and realised what a scam NFT "art" is, its entire reason for existing would evaporate. Quite literally its entire infrastructure could collapse, regardless if there was one person who dearly loved his secret password to a link pointing to a jpg that no longer existed.

    Crypto, and NFTs ad nothing to the value chain. They cause tremendous harm to our shared environment. Some people will get rich, but at the behest of a bunch of suckers, like in any other pyramid scheme.


    TL;DR
    How you value something is not the same as how much it is worth in money.
    I get where you're coming from. But I think you're also not recognising how many purchasing decisions are socially driven. They're a way to signal wealth and status. We're hard wired to do this and most spending beyond basic shelter and sustenance are driven (to varying degrees) by this.

    When you view people's spending through this lens, you'll see that the more useless something is, the more effective it is at signalling status and wealth.

    Spending 2000 on some fancy hearing aids is not a particularly strong signal of wealth, as hearing aids are useful and have a strong value/utility story (this person may simply place a lot of value on hearing). Compare this to owning a diamond or something similar. Diamonds are pretty much useless, so to buy one signals that you have sufficient wealth and status to blow money on useless things. It's therefore a very strong and effective signal. You can apply this to expensive art and millions of other examples. Rich folk buying expensive artwork will spend far more time telling people about it, or showing people it (either privately or at an exhibition) than they will spend 'consuming' it.

    So when people point out how useless and arbitrary an NFT is - that could strangely be working in its favour. Purchasing 'ownership' of otherwise fungible digital assets or cultural memes sounds like a great way for people to signal how rich they are. Imagine the Facebooks of the future having digital 'shelves' where people put their NFTs...

    Another similarly large driver of human behaviour is scarcity. Make something of little value scarce and demand will skyrocket. NFTs are scarce and unique, so this will also work in their favour.

    NFTs make no sense at all if you assume people are rational actors. If you factor in evolutionary psychology (signalling, envy/jealousy, association bias, scarcity) and cognitive biases (social proof, liking bias) things maybe start pointing in the other direction. Who knows.

    Edited by Benno at 22:53:54 28-04-2021
  • JYM60 28 Apr 2021 22:54:33 18,924 posts
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    CrispyXUKTurbo wrote:
    Friend of mine that invests in crypto with me wants to except new coin in his restaurant. is there an easy way of doing that?
    Literally just needs a wallet and give the customer the address to send crypto to. I presume.
  • Tonka 29 Apr 2021 07:43:37 31,801 posts
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    Benno wrote:
    Tonka wrote:

    TL;DR
    How you value something is not the same as how much it is worth in money.
    I get where you're coming from. But I think you're also not recognising how many purchasing decisions are socially driven.
    /SNIP
    I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me that crypto and NFTs are useless beyond financial speculation, but everything you wrote supports that argument.

    And that is precisely what I hold against crypto. All the promises of better "banking" etc came to dust. What's left is a pyramid scheme that rewards the people who consumes the most energy.
  • kingnothing12 29 Apr 2021 08:22:28 831 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    Benno wrote:
    Tonka wrote:

    TL;DR
    How you value something is not the same as how much it is worth in money.
    I get where you're coming from. But I think you're also not recognising how many purchasing decisions are socially driven.
    /SNIP
    I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me that crypto and NFTs are useless beyond financial speculation, but everything you wrote supports that argument.

    And that is precisely what I hold against crypto. All the promises of better "banking" etc came to dust. What's left is a pyramid scheme that rewards the people who consumes the most energy.
    What are you talking about? You do realise that alot of bitcoin mining comes from renewable energy sources now. Also the energy to mine and store gold far outweighs bitcoin. The energy wasted narrative is spun every time to try and drive the price down, I think I've seen about 10 articles in the last few months alone and the price didn't flinch.

    Also the banking narrative still exists. It hasn't 'come to dust'. Simple Google searches about visa and Ethereum will show you that. The infrastructure wasn't in place before and now it's starting to come together with the use of smart contracts and oracles. Blockchain is useless if it can't scale and access trust less, tamper proof data end to end. Smart contracts are going to be huge, but the standards for them need to be in place first. In a few years you won't even realise you're using blockchain/smart contracts. It will be embedded into so many systems to stream line processes and get rid of so many meaningless data input jobs.(This doesn't mean you need to have tokens to access all this, most of the enterprises will be the ones holding and staking the tokens in nodes, what ever system you will be using will be accessing the network in some form. The token ensures cryptographic security on their end)

    Look how long it took the Internet and emails to become fully user friendly, was it nearly 20 years? Smart contracts and blockchain will do for the Internet what the smart phone did. You just are thinking short term. Try thinking past a couple years and think decades.

    Edited by kingnothing12 at 08:25:25 29-04-2021
  • JYM60 29 Apr 2021 09:29:39 18,924 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    Benno wrote:
    Tonka wrote:

    TL;DR
    How you value something is not the same as how much it is worth in money.
    I get where you're coming from. But I think you're also not recognising how many purchasing decisions are socially driven.
    /SNIP
    I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me that crypto and NFTs are useless beyond financial speculation, but everything you wrote supports that argument.

    And that is precisely what I hold against crypto. All the promises of better "banking" etc came to dust. What's left is a pyramid scheme that rewards the people who consumes the most energy.

    I believe Cardano just signed an agreement with the Ethiopian government to bring banking to students there. Whether this turns out to be nothing in the end though, not sure.
  • Tonka 29 Apr 2021 10:12:27 31,801 posts
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    kingnothing12 wrote:
    What are you talking about? You do realise that alot of bitcoin mining comes from renewable energy sources now.
    It's a zero sum game, increased energy in oe place will lead to increased dirty production in another. We need to find ways to lessen the energy consumption, not increase it.

    And bitcoin plus etherum actively reward those that consumes the most energy.

    kingnothing12 wrote:
    Also the energy to mine and store gold far outweighs bitcoin.
    So? I'm not defending gold mining. This "argument" is rapidly replacing the one where the blockchain had any actual use. "Well, the other shit is also crap!"

    kingnothing12 wrote:
    The energy wasted narrative is spun every time to try and drive the price down, I think I've seen about 10 articles in the last few months alone and the price didn't flinch.
    So? I don't give a shit about crypto prices. I care about how something that is good for nothing (except financial speculation) is cnsuming vast amounts of data.

    kingnothing12 wrote:
    In a few years you won't even realise you're using blockchain/smart contracts. It will be embedded into so many systems to stream line processes and get rid of so many meaningless data input jobs.(This doesn't mean you need to have tokens to access all this, most of the enterprises will be the ones holding and staking the tokens in nodes, what ever system you will be using will be accessing the network in some form. The token ensures cryptographic security on their end)
    All of this is perfectly possible without the cumbersome system that is the blockchain, be it PoC or PoS.

    kingnothing12 wrote:
    Look how long it took the Internet and emails to become fully user friendly, was it nearly 20 years? Smart contracts and blockchain will do for the Internet what the smart phone did. You just are thinking short term. Try thinking past a couple years and think decades.
    The difference being that there was no infrastructure in place, people didn't have computers, internet connections, plus there was a distinct lack of established interaction patterns. Crypto transaction don't have to invent on-line payments. All they have to do is mimic what's readily available. And at that they fail spectacularly.

    E.g. the guy who bought a Tesla for Bitcoin and entered the wrong adress. "You're fault!". Imagine buying a game from steam and the money ending up somewhere else with no possibility to get it back.

    There is no excuse for such shit interaction more than eleven years into a "products" life cycle.
  • brokenkey 29 Apr 2021 11:30:08 10,963 posts
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    Don't engage the troll.
  • rock27gr 29 Apr 2021 13:04:07 6,439 posts
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    Tonka wrote:

    E.g. the guy who bought a Tesla for Bitcoin and entered the wrong adress. "You're fault!". Imagine buying a game from steam and the money ending up somewhere else with no possibility to get it back.
    Wow that must have hurt!
  • dfunked09 29 Apr 2021 13:10:45 2,001 posts
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    If anything there's less room for error with getting Bitcoin addresses wrong than there is with bank transfers for example. I always double and triple check bank details before I hit send and still stress that I might've got them wrong.

    With any crypto you either copy and paste the address or use a QR code, no manual mistakes to be made unless you insist on typing the address yourself, in which case it's your fault if you fuck it up.

    Edited by dfunked09 at 13:11:04 29-04-2021
  • brokenkey 29 Apr 2021 13:36:05 10,963 posts
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    There's no way of knowing if the qr code you are scanning had been compromised though.

    With a bank account payment, you've got confirmation of payee to let you compare the name of the person you think you are positive with the account owner.
  • Load_2.0 29 Apr 2021 13:49:05 33,075 posts
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    I might be wrong but the biggest challenge I would assume is correctly reporting income for tax returns.

    Given the volatility of crypto you'll need to keep individual records for each transaction value each time a payment is made (according to its current value). For example if a customer paid for a 10 meal with Doge at the start of the year that payment today is 10x the value. The reverse of course is true when it tanks.

    Most businesses also have some degree of bank finance. Usually a business loan of some sort where a certain level of profit is required. Crypto isn't to the best of my knowledge accepted as a revenue stream.

    Paying staff, suppliers etc requires cash flow so you may be regularly exchanging crypto for fiat which incurs fees and potentially taxes.

    It's not impossible, plenty of businesses can do it but for small businesses there is plenty to consider.

    Edited by Load_2.0 at 13:51:14 29-04-2021
  • Tonka 29 Apr 2021 13:51:15 31,801 posts
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    dfunked09 wrote:
    If anything there's less room for error with getting Bitcoin addresses wrong than there is with bank transfers for example. I always double and triple check bank details before I hit send and still stress that I might've got them wrong.
    When was the last time you made a bank transfer to buy some shit on the internet though?
  • Tonka 29 Apr 2021 13:53:25 31,801 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    I might be wrong but the biggest challenge I would assume is correctly reporting income for tax returns.
    In Teslas case that's no problem at all. It's all a way to dodge tax you see. No intention of turning it into actual money you can pay salaries in etc. They have enough money, and moving to Arizona didn't cut taxes enough for Mr Musk, so it makes perfect sens to HODLR.
  • Load_2.0 29 Apr 2021 13:55:41 33,075 posts
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    Well sure with millions in the bank cash flow isn't a problem.

    Thinking about it accounts payable and reconciliation must be a nightmare. Trying to do a 3 way match with crypto would be impossible.

    Edited by Load_2.0 at 14:53:44 29-04-2021
  • Tonka 29 Apr 2021 14:01:14 31,801 posts
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    For sure. And it's equally frustrating to buy a car, and then one week later the amount you paid for it has risen by 20%.

    But hey...
    DECENTRALISATION
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  • sport 29 Apr 2021 14:15:36 16,849 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    For sure. And it's equally frustrating to buy a car, and then one week later the amount you paid for it has risen by 20%.
    Still got the lambo, bruh.
  • Benno 29 Apr 2021 15:18:57 11,831 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    Benno wrote:
    Tonka wrote:

    TL;DR
    How you value something is not the same as how much it is worth in money.
    I get where you're coming from. But I think you're also not recognising how many purchasing decisions are socially driven.
    /SNIP
    I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me that crypto and NFTs are useless beyond financial speculation, but everything you wrote supports that argument.
    No, not at all. I thought it was clear I was taking about social signalling, not financial speculation.

    People don't buy diamonds and fancy cars to speculate. They buy them to signal their wealth. I am not predicting this will necessarily happen to NFTs (I think there is a much higher likelihood they vaporise into nothing), but its among the set of possible outcomes, so potentially worth making a bet on if you think the odds are right.

    There's a whole other side to NFTs as a trustless way to identify the provenance of something. This would be especially useful to 'immunise' certain types of media against being deep faked (its actually our only real defence against deep fakes to be honest).

    I don't know much about this, but that dodgy NFT fund I mentioned a couple of pages back has recently invested in some company that uses NFTs to track the authenticity of designer fashion goods through the supply chain. You start approaching some potentially valuable use cases here.
  • Dirt3 29 Apr 2021 16:02:53 1,625 posts
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    Benno wrote:
    Tonka wrote:
    I've seen that, and similar, arguments from crypto lovers a few times and it really holds no water. It's the perfect distillation of nearly everything that is flawed with the crypto argument.

    First, it freely swaps the meaning of value as in "can I get money from this?" to value as in "is this something I appreciate, something that is useful, something that has enhanced what came before it in the value chain?"

    I've bought art that I appreciate. Art that I value, regardless of what I can get for it if I decided to sell it. It's value to me is perfectly independent on what we collectively tell ourself its monetary value is.

    But, if everyone came to their senses and realised what a scam NFT "art" is, its entire reason for existing would evaporate. Quite literally its entire infrastructure could collapse, regardless if there was one person who dearly loved his secret password to a link pointing to a jpg that no longer existed.

    Crypto, and NFTs ad nothing to the value chain. They cause tremendous harm to our shared environment. Some people will get rich, but at the behest of a bunch of suckers, like in any other pyramid scheme.


    TL;DR
    How you value something is not the same as how much it is worth in money.
    I get where you're coming from. But I think you're also not recognising how many purchasing decisions are socially driven. They're a way to signal wealth and status. We're hard wired to do this and most spending beyond basic shelter and sustenance are driven (to varying degrees) by this.

    When you view people's spending through this lens, you'll see that the more useless something is, the more effective it is at signalling status and wealth.

    Spending 2000 on some fancy hearing aids is not a particularly strong signal of wealth, as hearing aids are useful and have a strong value/utility story (this person may simply place a lot of value on hearing). Compare this to owning a diamond or something similar. Diamonds are pretty much useless, so to buy one signals that you have sufficient wealth and status to blow money on useless things. It's therefore a very strong and effective signal. You can apply this to expensive art and millions of other examples. Rich folk buying expensive artwork will spend far more time telling people about it, or showing people it (either privately or at an exhibition) than they will spend 'consuming' it.

    So when people point out how useless and arbitrary an NFT is - that could strangely be working in its favour. Purchasing 'ownership' of otherwise fungible digital assets or cultural memes sounds like a great way for people to signal how rich they are. Imagine the Facebooks of the future having digital 'shelves' where people put their NFTs...

    Another similarly large driver of human behaviour is scarcity. Make something of little value scarce and demand will skyrocket. NFTs are scarce and unique, so this will also work in their favour.

    NFTs make no sense at all if you assume people are rational actors. If you factor in evolutionary psychology (signalling, envy/jealousy, association bias, scarcity) and cognitive biases (social proof, liking bias) things maybe start pointing in the other direction. Who knows.
    I know it's just an example, but diamonds really aren't "pretty much useless".

    Otherwise we wouldn't produce thousands of tonnes of synthetic ones pa.

    They are used in industrial applications for their hardness and thermal properties.
  • Benno 29 Apr 2021 17:09:15 11,831 posts
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    @Dirt3 I don't see what that has to do with the point I was making. Obviously I'm not suggesting companies which are buying diamonds for their industrial properties are socially signalling.

    When a celebrity spends quarter of a million dollars on a diamond manicure, they're not doing it for its thermal properties.
  • Dirt3 29 Apr 2021 17:52:21 1,625 posts
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    Benno wrote:
    @Dirt3 I don't see what that has to do with the point I was making. Obviously I'm not suggesting companies which are buying diamonds for their industrial properties are socially signalling.

    When a celebrity spends quarter of a million dollars on a diamond manicure, they're not doing it for its thermal properties.
    It doesn't have that much to do with the point you are making, and I'm sure you could find something else to sub in instead of diamonds.

    My point is the statement "Diamonds are essentially useless" is factually incorrect. They aren't. They are extremely useful in quite a few applications and posses properties that no other material has. And I wouldn't want you or anyone else to be under the false impression that they are useless.
  • sport 29 Apr 2021 18:34:55 16,849 posts
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    DIAMOND hands Benno, FFS!!
  • Tonka 30 Apr 2021 07:54:49 31,801 posts
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    Benno wrote:
    There's a whole other side to NFTs as a trustless way to identify the provenance of something. This would be especially useful to 'immunise' certain types of media against being deep faked (its actually our only real defence against deep fakes to be honest).
    I just can't see that working.
    As it is, an NFT is just a password protected link to a URL. The media that the link is pointing to can be swapped, manipulated, or deleted. (All of those have happened)

    A proposed "solution" to this flaw is to store the media itself on the blockchain. That's so dumb it hurts. Everyone would have a copy of all media? Try that with video...

    Anyway, let's say NFT's actually worked the way the people benefitting from them gaining in popularity says they work. Let's then say Trump put out a "NFT Certified" video that proves he had nothing to do with the failed coup attempt. It's still shit. Deepfaked videos could still be verified. Oh, but let's say that Nancy Pelosi did NOT verify that video where she looked drunk?

    Right back at a trust based solution.

    Let's say SONY put automatic NFT signing on all video leaving thei cameras? (Well, first it will never happen because NFT's are one way as I said above) but we're AGAIN back at a trusted source. And... all DRM so far has been cracked.

    It's a pipe dream, better att highlighting the naivety of the clowns in crypto than any actual use for cypto.

    Benno wrote:
    I don't know much about this, but that dodgy NFT fund I mentioned a couple of pages back has recently invested in some company that uses NFTs to track the authenticity of designer fashion goods through the supply chain. You start approaching some potentially valuable use cases here.
    This is strange because it takes what was promised to be a way to certify DIGITAL goods, and pretends it can do the same for Physical goods (when it can't even do it for digital). Supply chains are immensely complex and introducing yet another standard into them won't solve fake goods. I doubt anyone who can afford a real Prada bag (or whatever) end up with a fake one by accident. All they have to do is go to a Prada store.
    If the entire store is a fake, then a digital certificate won't change a thing.

    Turtles all the way to the bottom. There is no Emperor
  • brokenkey 30 Apr 2021 09:28:57 10,963 posts
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    I agree with Tonka,all the token does is certify that the token is genuine and "original", not that the item it's attached to is. So if I attached it to a stick-drawing copy of the mona lisa, it doesn't make the stick-drawing the original mona lisa, all it does is de-value the token.
  • Benno 30 Apr 2021 09:43:46 11,831 posts
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    @Tonka

    I'll be honest I just don't know enough about these things (if that wasn't obvious already). You make some good points. I'm not sure if I fully understood your trump/pelosi paragraph though.

    There is some interesting talk on using NFTs and smart contracts for managing property ownership without a middle party. The land registry is even 'exploring' it (whatever that means).

    I would like to read and learn more about it, but its really hard to find unbiased sources as its become very polarised and quite tribal (like everything these days). Hard to find balanced shade-of-grey opinions (its either vapid nonsense or the advent of a new utopia).
  • brokenkey 30 Apr 2021 09:50:13 10,963 posts
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    This flowchart is quite popular (if you aren't trying to sell blockchain consultancy services).

    https://images.app.goo.gl/9i86cuaNP7XHHsVA6
  • Tonka 30 Apr 2021 10:22:59 31,801 posts
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    @Benno My Trump / Pelosi thing was just meant to illustrate that what's being heralded as a trustless system reverts to "You have to trust the source" at the gentlest of probes.

    If Trump released some shit that was Officially White House NFT Certified, I'd still not trust it.

    There was a doctored video of Pelosi a while back where someone had just slowed it down a bit to make her look drunk (this is very hilarious and works on all YouTube videos, make any TED Talker drunk!)

    But how would that deepfake have been impossible with NFT? Either by Nancy NOT signing it (trusted source) or the camera equipment automatically NFTing it (impossible).

    And that whole thing is a constant non-argument from the cryptids. "It's trustless, screw the big institutions. Oh, the LANDREGISTRY will keep the record!" They always fall back on the thing they say they will dismantle.

    I think it's very hard to find some grey middle ground because it's basically a religion. Either you believe in it or you don't. To me it's pure bullshit. It's not a solution looking for a problem, because the solution isn't there. There is no emperor. Turtles all the way etc etc

    But.

    If they only stop rewarding obscene energy consumption I wouldn't be so upset about it.
  • Dirt3 30 Apr 2021 10:29:21 1,625 posts
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    Hmm Bitcoin, my musings.

    It's a ponzi scheme. This one sucks in the whole world though, so its going to run for some time. Now the fact that it's a ponzi scheme, does that actually make it different to any other speculative investment like gold for example ? And the answer is no, to a degree. The difference is something like gold or art has asthetic appeal and value because of desirability and limited supply, and in the example of gold it has industrial uses as well. So it has value beyond its use as a money token. That said, neither art nor gold have the level of flexibility that bitcoin has for use as a money token.

    Bitcoin unlike gold or art is not unique. Anyone can come up with an identical premise. The only thing that gives bitcoin its value is that a group of people agree on its value. If the group decided another coin was valuable instead they could move to that.

    Is bitcoin "secure" or maybe a better word would be technically flawed ? Well who knows. That said there are an awful lot of clever people around and there are lots of rapid developments at the moment in computing capability. If someone can find a crack then it could collapse in value.

    Is bitcoin the best possible implementation of a digital currency ? This seems unlikely, simply because it is the first. With the first you learn, and then later improve. It seems likely that at some point in the future some better implementation will come along. At which point all the people who think bitcoin has value may decide that the new currency should be used instead.

    Bitcoin seems to me to be quite wild west still. Currencies are backed by the threat of force and policed by governments to maintain their integrity. Bitcoin isn't. It doesn't have that level of protection. What would happen if someone counterfeited it ? if you make a mistake with it can you get it back ? Rules and laws in general are there protect the consumer. What consumer protections are in place ?

    Finally there is some theory. I don't know what it is called. But it says that the longer something is around, the more likely it is to be around in the future. The pyramids of Giza are often used as one example. The idea that they will be around in 2000 years time seems reasonable, because they have already been around for a few thousand years. Bitcoin has been around for a tiny amount of time relatively, so the probability it is here to last is much reduced.

    I think it is a really interesting concept, and at some point in the future we may well end up using something like it practically. I'm just not entirely convinced it is here to stay. And if that is the case, then the dominant question becomes when to get out.
  • Benno 30 Apr 2021 10:51:16 11,831 posts
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    Dirt3 wrote:


    Finally there is some theory. I don't know what it is called. But it says that the longer something is around, the more likely it is to be around in the future. The pyramids of Giza are often used as one example. The idea that they will be around in 2000 years time seems reasonable, because they have already been around for a few thousand years. Bitcoin has been around for a tiny amount of time relatively, so the probability it is here to last is much reduced.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
  • sport 30 Apr 2021 10:55:16 16,849 posts
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    Ok, I've bought 1000 Gizacoin. When moon?
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