Following New Apple Stuff Page 13

  • ozthegweat 23 Jun 2020 10:22:07 2,500 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    ozthegweat wrote:
    azurelas_2 wrote:
    I have no problem in principle with an ARM MacBook or MacBook Air. But I can't imagine the performance being good enough for the rest of the PCs.
    The 9 month old iPhone 11, which has a chip designed around the severe power and thermal constraints of a phone, beats the 16" MacBook Pro with an i9 in single-core performance. I think performance won't be an issue.
    Itís very unlikely that Apple has just announced a switch without having spent the last ~5 years developing desktop ARM processors that are already powerful enough, they wonít just chuck a phone cpu in a MacBook and say thatís it for now
    I agree, I'm not saying that they would do that. My argument was that even if they were to do that, it would already beat a powerful laptop in single-core performance. A CPU that is designed with a laptop or desktop in mind would be even faster.
  • Fake_Blood 23 Jun 2020 10:44:18 10,377 posts
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    I know macs arenít used for gaming very much, but I do have a bunch of games like Firewatch in my Steam library that have osx versions, I was just thinking that when they switch to ARM none of them are going to work anymore.
    Also no more bootcamp I guess?
  • beastmaster 23 Jun 2020 11:08:07 20,704 posts
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    This explains it pretty well.

  • elstoof 23 Jun 2020 11:52:43 25,682 posts
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    ozthegweat wrote:
    elstoof wrote:
    ozthegweat wrote:
    azurelas_2 wrote:
    I have no problem in principle with an ARM MacBook or MacBook Air. But I can't imagine the performance being good enough for the rest of the PCs.
    The 9 month old iPhone 11, which has a chip designed around the severe power and thermal constraints of a phone, beats the 16" MacBook Pro with an i9 in single-core performance. I think performance won't be an issue.
    Itís very unlikely that Apple has just announced a switch without having spent the last ~5 years developing desktop ARM processors that are already powerful enough, they wonít just chuck a phone cpu in a MacBook and say thatís it for now
    I agree, I'm not saying that they would do that. My argument was that even if they were to do that, it would already beat a powerful laptop in single-core performance. A CPU that is designed with a laptop or desktop in mind would be even faster.
    I wasnít contradicting you, I was adding to your argument
  • Fake_Blood 23 Jun 2020 12:09:17 10,377 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    ozthegweat wrote:
    elstoof wrote:
    ozthegweat wrote:
    azurelas_2 wrote:
    I have no problem in principle with an ARM MacBook or MacBook Air. But I can't imagine the performance being good enough for the rest of the PCs.
    The 9 month old iPhone 11, which has a chip designed around the severe power and thermal constraints of a phone, beats the 16" MacBook Pro with an i9 in single-core performance. I think performance won't be an issue.
    Itís very unlikely that Apple has just announced a switch without having spent the last ~5 years developing desktop ARM processors that are already powerful enough, they wonít just chuck a phone cpu in a MacBook and say thatís it for now
    I agree, I'm not saying that they would do that. My argument was that even if they were to do that, it would already beat a powerful laptop in single-core performance. A CPU that is designed with a laptop or desktop in mind would be even faster.
    I wasnít contradicting you, I was adding to your argument
    Is there more info on how they've tested this?
    Because the key words there are single core performance. They've been failing to adequately cool their intel processors lately, like in the 2020 macbook air they have a 4core 8 thread cpu with only a tiny heatsink and no fan. That thing instantly jumps to 100įc and then power is reduced to 10 watts. I can easily see an ARM chip beating that.
  • uiruki 23 Jun 2020 12:32:38 5,199 posts
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    Looking at the Notebookcheck review, the 2020 Macbook Air actually does have a fan - and a pretty loud one at that - so not only is it hot and slow, it's noisy too.
  • Fake_Blood 23 Jun 2020 12:38:43 10,377 posts
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    There's a fan, but it's nowhere near the bit that gets really really hot.
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 12:45:37 25,306 posts
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    That has been the issue with the Intel chips for years. They just never managed to build a CPU that was truly at home in anything other than a desktop. Apple were always gonna go this way regardless, but Intel certainly made the decision easy (and possibly brought it forward a bit).

    The A12X, and all the apps I can run on my iPad Pro with it, was pretty much the point where the world thought: yep, it's ready for a desktop workload. Especially as you might imagine the Mac CPU will have more cores, more cache, and a dramatically higher clock speed.

    Most users won't be able to even tell the difference, especially if Rosetta 2 does its thing silently in the background.

    Microsoft have been trying to make this stick for years with Windows on ARM. Hopefully Apple will have a bit more luck, and that'll benefit the whole ecosystem. The Intel CPU stranglehold has been ripe for a kicking for a long time now. Hopefully this scares them into actually, you know, having a new idea or something. :)
  • beastmaster 23 Jun 2020 13:42:32 20,704 posts
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    As there was no new hardware revealed, then presumable the next hardware showcase will have pretty much iEverything!
  • Fake_Blood 23 Jun 2020 13:52:20 10,377 posts
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    Still, I know how the new chips will benefit Apple, not really clear to me whatís in it for the consumer. Especially now AMD finally has laptop cpus that blow Intel out of the water.
  • beastmaster 23 Jun 2020 14:28:01 20,704 posts
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    Cheaper prices? Much faster processing? Better integration?
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 14:33:40 25,306 posts
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    Fake_Blood wrote:
    Still, I know how the new chips will benefit Apple, not really clear to me whatís in it for the consumer. Especially now AMD finally has laptop cpus that blow Intel out of the water.
    They're gonna be intrinsically vastly more power efficient and cooler. Thinner, lighter, laptops with more power. Probably not in the first gen, but by the second I'd say that's a fair expectation.

    Intel aren't in the running in that world, and even AMD part can't compete with an ARM on that - decades and decades of working in lower power, passively/minimally cooled, solutions rather than starting in a big box and working back from that.

    There's also the ability to run iOS/iPadOS apps on the desktop. There's going to be *something* interesting in that, even if it feels like a gimmick today. That notion of taking your workflow from phone to tablet to laptop to desktop... that could be a game changer for a lot of people.

    Plus the x86 architecture was always a clusterfuck. I was gutted when IBM threw in the PowerPC towel, and I'm over the moon that ARM is basically gonna rule the world. :)

    There's also the fact that they get the economy of scale in manufacturing effectively the same type of CPUs for their entire range of hardware. I almost typed "and so the laptops will get cheaper" but it's Apple, so let's not even pretend they're going to pass on any savings. :)

    Anyways. TL;DR: I reckon - as long as they don't fuckup the software migration - there's a lot for the consumer in the move to ARM CPUs.
  • Nazo 23 Jun 2020 15:14:08 1,328 posts
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    Are these ARM machines going to be touchscreen? I don't see the point of running iOS apps on them if not.
  • ozthegweat 23 Jun 2020 15:18:18 2,500 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    I wasnít contradicting you, I was adding to your argument
    Oh I see, sorry I misunderstood.
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 15:23:02 25,306 posts
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    Nazo wrote:
    Are these ARM machines going to be touchscreen? I don't see the point of running iOS apps on them if not.
    Who knows. It's worth pointing out that iPadOS apps can use mice now, so this is more of a convergence play than anything else. The majority of iOS apps can also be used with just one finger to tap around also, so there's still utility there.

    Just because it'll support all the apps, doesn't mean you have to use 'em nor that it's a good idea...

    ...as a good example, though, I'd much rather use my banking app on the desktop than the pisspoor puddle of shit that is my bank's website - stuffed to the gills as it is for adverts for shite I don't want from them, and with my needing to go find a card machine to log in, etc. etc.. :)

    Edited by Phattso at 15:23:38 23-06-2020
  • THFourteen 23 Jun 2020 16:56:55 53,685 posts
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    @Phattso tiger lake looks pretty damn good for gaming on a laptop.
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 17:05:08 25,306 posts
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    @THFourteen it's never about performance, dude, it's always about power draw and thermals. Nobody is saying Intel CPUs are shit, only that they get chuffing hot and drain batteries like a mofo. They're also still on a double-digit process. In space year 2020. Fucking numpties.

    However you cut it, an ARM based machine is always gonna run cooler and draw less power. For people that want/need the blazing fast Intel cores, they'll be nicely served elsewhere I'm sure.
  • beastmaster 23 Jun 2020 17:19:23 20,704 posts
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    The new 16 inch MacBook Pro is meant to get it just right in terms of thermals. Theyíve just added a new graphics option which increase its performance by about 75%. And you can still charge it on a plane.

    Some people complained that they didnít update the CPU as well but that could be down to size and thermals.

    Would personally like to see them go 17 inch again.
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 17:21:15 25,306 posts
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    We have the new 16s where I work - they still cook themselves on big compilations in Xcode. My number 1 hope for any eventual Pro spec ARM machine is that I can do my work without needing fucking ear plugs. :)
  • Fake_Blood 23 Jun 2020 19:04:48 10,377 posts
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    I look at my macbook pro as kind of swiss knife, and this feels like taking some of the tools away. Itís hard to get excited about power efficiency and things running cooler. I got my new one in 2018 so should last me a couple of years, but I think my next laptop will probably be a Razer.
  • THFourteen 23 Jun 2020 19:07:16 53,685 posts
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    Phattso wrote:
    @THFourteen it's never about performance, dude, it's always about power draw and thermals. Nobody is saying Intel CPUs are shit, only that they get chuffing hot and drain batteries like a mofo. They're also still on a double-digit process. In space year 2020. Fucking numpties.

    However you cut it, an ARM based machine is always gonna run cooler and draw less power. For people that want/need the blazing fast Intel cores, they'll be nicely served elsewhere I'm sure.
    Most modern laptops last a whole day doing the stuff you'd do on an ipad - surfing, watching videos, typing in word or excel.

    The chips all throttle the TDP down to what is actually needed rather than burning on full blast all the time if i understand correctly.
  • elstoof 23 Jun 2020 19:12:45 25,682 posts
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    A 16Ē MacBook Pro needs a 100 watt hour battery to last all day doing that, while a 12.9Ē iPad Pro has a 36 watt hour battery. Batteries are expensive, theyíre big and theyíre heavy
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 19:19:58 25,306 posts
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    Fake_Blood wrote:
    I look at my macbook pro as kind of swiss knife, and this feels like taking some of the tools away. Itís hard to get excited about power efficiency and things running cooler. I got my new one in 2018 so should last me a couple of years, but I think my next laptop will probably be a Razer.
    Sure - if the specific Intel things are important to you, then you should look elsewhere for that unless the virtualisation turns up something good. They're still gonna sell Intel Macs for another few years anyways.

    Not really seeing your point re: excitement. It's a CPU. It's no more or less exciting than any given CPU change/upgrade. Why would you expect it to be? The rest of the laptop spec won't stand still. There'll no doubt be other things to look forward to in the later models. It's more about where it'll take us in the future. The last few CPU bumps to Intel's sped-du-jour have been damp squibs - this at least opens the door to some cool shit down the line.

    That said for my part, I'm quite excited by the fact that I might be able to do all the things I do today, only faster, and without the fucking fans cranking up like an OG PS4 on a bad day. :)
  • elstoof 23 Jun 2020 19:23:06 25,682 posts
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    If the applications you use get optimised for the new architecture, who cares what the processor is? x86 is a dinosaur, itís about time something more modern took off
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 19:26:44 25,306 posts
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    I mean, ARM isn't exactly a young whipper snapper. It's been around since the early 90s!

    But it is at least fit for purpose in the modern world re: power per watt, and for my money has the best instruction set of any CPU. The BIGlittle architectural approach really paid dividends. #NerdGasm
  • Fake_Blood 23 Jun 2020 19:59:31 10,377 posts
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    Because the applications I run are already slow in parallels, let alone a parallels on ARM.
    I just donít get why I should be excited about having less options? You already have the lightweight ARM option with the ipad pro, I donít need a lighter and thinner macbook.
    Whatís even going to be the difference between the 2022 macbook air and the ipad pro?
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 20:09:44 25,306 posts
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    Parallels. Jesus, that takes me back.

    I'm not suggesting you should be excited. If this fucks you over (and you don't know yet that it does, by the way) then by all means be pissed or feel indifferent. :)

    It has reduced *your* options, potentially, but the move to ARM actually increases mine. And is actually the right move to make, IMHO. It opens the door to discrete processing blocks for different functions, which in turn will get more powerful, rather than relying on a monolithic CPU block to do everything.

    And with convergence at the non-pro end of the Mac line with the top end of the iPad line the clear endgame for Apple here, maybe the 2022 iPad Pro *is* de facto the 2022 MacBook as well. Who cares? Those that used it were huge fans of Microsoft's Surface - if this ends up being Apple doing that, but doing it better and not hanging it out to dry, I'm up for that!
  • CrispyXUKTurbo 23 Jun 2020 20:12:12 2,897 posts
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    Apples and acorns :)
  • Phattso 23 Jun 2020 20:17:45 25,306 posts
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    :D
  • fontgeeksogood 23 Jun 2020 20:25:01 9,718 posts
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    Looking forward to the big announcement that iOS apps will work natively on the Macs (because refactoring for a totally new chipset will invariably have casualties)
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