Following The Woke AF Thread Page 246

  • drhickman1983 24 May 2021 10:32:05 7,763 posts
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    When I believe much of the transphobia today exists because of this stupid fucking culture war it's hard not to separate the two.

    Edited by drhickman1983 at 10:32:13 24-05-2021
  • nickthegun 24 May 2021 10:33:47 87,514 posts
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    Its not really even a debate. The most visible people championing this issue *are* right wingers and when pressed, they cant give any actual examples.

    I know you might not like it but this *is* a right wing talking point and the undue prominence the issue has versus its actual manifestation in the real world is clearly transphobic.
  • Tonka 24 May 2021 10:33:49 31,928 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    As far as I can tell the last few pages have been about fairness in sports.
    Actually, it's about ethics in games journalism.
  • hillbilly66 24 May 2021 10:37:01 3,467 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Its not really even a debate. The most visible people championing this issue *are* right wingers and when pressed, they cant give any actual examples.

    I know you might not like it but this *is* a right wing talking point and the undue prominence the issue has versus its actual manifestation in the real world is clearly transphobic.
    That's a fair point.
  • Load_2.0 24 May 2021 10:39:09 33,522 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Its not really even a debate. The most visible people championing this issue *are* right wingers and when pressed, they cant give any actual examples.

    I know you might not like it but this *is* a right wing talking point and the undue prominence the issue has versus its actual manifestation in the real world is clearly transphobic.
    I genuinely disagree. They're the most visible to you.

    It's those competing and athletes both current and retired who are looking for the issue to be addressed in the fairest possible way.
  • Wayne 24 May 2021 10:39:19 3,955 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Its not really even a debate. The most visible people championing this issue *are* right wingers and when pressed, they cant give any actual examples.

    I know you might not like it but this *is* a right wing talking point and the undue prominence the issue has versus its actual manifestation in the real world is clearly transphobic.
    And there it is. "Disagree with me, and you hate trans people."

    Edited by Wayne at 10:39:32 24-05-2021
  • You-can-call-me-kal 24 May 2021 10:39:48 23,001 posts
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    Decks wrote:
    I used that name to point out that people born biologically as a man have large hands which is an advantage in a lot of sports.

    Admittedly it was in bad taste but I've never tried to pretend I'm a Jonny Woke Pants either. My apologies though.
    Ok.

    Nothing in that post suggests that I think trans athletes are doing it it to cheat though.
    Well, I wouldn’t say nothing. The way you constructed the point I would say implied bad faith on the part of the trans people competing against the poor super hard working dedicated women. It is admittedly a subtle implication and perhaps not using the other slur would have helped, but I feel it’s there.

    But look I don’t mean to pick on you, yours was just the nearest example to hand of how the conversation around this can go, because Load was denying it happens. I absolutely guarantee if I dig back into the forum’s previous conversations on this I could find multiple (and much better) examples.
  • nickthegun 24 May 2021 10:42:00 87,514 posts
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    Wayne wrote:
    And there it is. "Disagree with me, and you hate trans people."
    If youre going to heckle from the sidelines, Wayne, at least do me the courtesy of actually reading my posts.
  • Load_2.0 24 May 2021 10:45:03 33,522 posts
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    C'mon there's definitely a clear theme in some of the posts from various posters.

    Oh well I read a tweet from Hitler that said Trans Women shouldn't play cricket....

    I'm not saying you're Hitler but...

    Edited by Load_2.0 at 10:45:29 24-05-2021
  • nickthegun 24 May 2021 10:50:45 87,514 posts
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    Like someone else pointed out, it seems like the toilet issue. This is a massive right wing talking point but the actual real world issues it causes are inversely proportional to how much its talked about.

    Its not really a huge stretch to suggest that if there is little real world impact of trans people in sports but its talked about constantly that might seem a little transphobic.
  • drhickman1983 24 May 2021 10:50:52 7,763 posts
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    It really is like Brexit then. Not everyone who voted to leave was racist but a huge swathe were.

    There are legitimate concerns, but much of the arguments are driven by right-wingers and undeniable transphobics.

    I'm not saying you personally are transphobic. I'm not saying your particular concerns are transphobic.

    But in the wider pictures of things, absolutely, some of the arguments come from people who seem to have had no actual investment in women's sport prior, but now suddenly they care!
  • drhickman1983 24 May 2021 10:51:25 7,763 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    C'mon there's definitely a clear theme in some of the posts from various posters.

    Oh well I read a tweet from Hitler that said Trans Women shouldn't play cricket....

    I'm not saying you're Hitler but...

    Edited by Load_2.0 at 10:45:29 24-05-2021
    WE DON'T NEED BOUNDARIES IN CRICKET
  • nickthegun 24 May 2021 10:53:59 87,514 posts
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    Which, to be honest, does make points you (and other people) raise a lot harder to make.

    Should we protect women in contact sports? Absolutely we should. But that does tend to get lost in the broader, scattershot foghorn of people shouting about school netball teams and marginal gains in amateur long jump.
  • Load_2.0 24 May 2021 11:02:18 33,522 posts
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    It's not marginal though.

    The closer you get to the top level of a sport the bigger the advantage any size, muscle density or hormonal difference will give an athlete.
  • nickthegun 24 May 2021 11:06:43 87,514 posts
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    So, to probably close out my contribution to this lovely discussion, I havent read them but I believe there are several studies that point to that not being the case and that the differences are negligible at best for the vast majority of sport.

    But even if it were true, I am perfectly fine with one or two athletes feeling a bit hard done by if it means the, frankly, needless persecution of trans people abates slightly. I am OK with the sanctity of sport being sacrificed on the altar of trans acceptance. This isnt a binary issue. You cant 100% maintain whatever imagined integrity is left in sport without actively discriminating against someone, whether it be trans or intersex people.

    Edited by nickthegun at 11:08:26 24-05-2021
  • Load_2.0 24 May 2021 11:09:29 33,522 posts
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    OK well we are at opposite sides of the argument.

    I don't think abandoning fairness or regulations is the resolution.
  • mothercruncher 24 May 2021 11:47:34 19,416 posts
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    I don’t either, specifically because the manifest unfairness in some cases, some quoted in this thread, probably really don’t help the acceptance cause when the right wingers can jizz their barely hidden hate across the Murdoch empire.

    The point of transition age is very pertinent and very thorny- no idea how you navigate that one. Also, the difference between sporting fairness in acts of straight athleticism and sporting safety at the more physical end of contact/combat sport is important. You can wave away “tough luck, trans rights are more important” for the former if you wish but you can’t for the latter without crossing a moral line.
  • KD 24 May 2021 11:49:03 3,537 posts
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    Is this argument over just MTF trans or includes FTM? Sometimes the biggest debates avoid all the sides and non binary never mentioned.
  • richarddavies 24 May 2021 11:56:14 8,293 posts
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    I just think if for example in 5 years their are alot more trans people in sport and it becomes apparent a high percentage of them are taking podium spots them it may be worth looking into. But as it stands, it seems a bit early days to be telling them to do one based on not alot of info/research.
  • Decks 24 May 2021 11:59:07 30,855 posts
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    KD wrote:
    Is this argument over just MTF trans or includes FTM? Sometimes the biggest debates avoid all the sides and non binary never mentioned.
    I'd say FTM wouldn't have any kind of advantages so it's not really an issue.
  • chopsen 24 May 2021 11:59:36 21,928 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    chopsen wrote:
    Nick, for something that you consider not to be an issue you're spending an awful lot of you mental bandwidth talking about it. Go and look at some videos of cats falling off stuff or something.
    But I do expend a needless amount of bandwidth thinking about how insidious right wing propaganda is and, like I touched on earlier, this is at the very least the driving force behind this being such a disproportionately visible issue. Hand up, thats the reason it bothers me and the reason im probably a 'bad ally'.
    I think by dividing the argument in to a dichotomy, where everybody is either one of the baddies or the goodies, is doing a lot of the work for the right wing propagandist for them. They want to polarise the debate, because that helps marginalise the issue. The other side of "everybody who thinks like this is right wing" is to say "everybody who is for recognition for trans rights basically wants to put male rapists in change of the girl guides, IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?"

    Saying "this is not an issue" doesn't solve it because by default UK gen pop *are* quite right wing and (more importantly) reactionary. The problem with the "left" and people who tend to argue the case for progressive ideas, and *especially* in social media, is that the argument is made in absolutes and ideological purity is more important that pragmatism. There is no nuance, or any acceptance of discussion around details.

    This polarisation is an open goal for the right, because the status quo is the default. More people are old and stuck in their ways and if they feel the progressive argument is a bridge too far they just won't bother.

    And not to dwell on it, but twitter if awful for this bullshit.

    I'm at a loss to know how to get around or through this situation, but fuck me the people on the left aren't half making the job of the right wing easy for them.

    (I hate the terms "left" and "right" as well fwiw, but hey ho).
  • nickthegun 24 May 2021 11:59:40 87,514 posts
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    I did say that would be my last post but......... one of my friends just retweeted this, which I think is a decent example of the kind of thing I am getting at:

    https://twitter.com/Jefflez/status/1396733962509225984
  • Graxlar_v3 24 May 2021 12:05:07 11,233 posts
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    So are we going to do away with male and female sports and decide categories based on testosterone?

    You are in bracket a if you exceed x levels of testosterone and bracket b if you do not??

    Either that or y’know let women play in the women’s category because they are women, no matter the gender they were born into.
  • Load_2.0 24 May 2021 12:10:50 33,522 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    I did say that would be my last post but......... one of my friends just retweeted this, which I think is a decent example of the kind of thing I am getting at:

    https://twitter.com/Jefflez/status/1396733962509225984
    I genuinely don't see how that post relates to a discussion on transgender athletes?
  • Tonka 24 May 2021 12:17:21 31,928 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:

    I genuinely don't see how that post relates to a discussion on transgender athletes?
    How would you like to see trans people treated in sports?
  • KD 24 May 2021 12:18:59 3,537 posts
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    @Decks Risk of injury, health and safety issue.
  • KD 24 May 2021 12:27:04 3,537 posts
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    Also if people are hitting on hormone injestions Messi had them to boost his height and helped (debatable) get such a great low center of gravity.

    This debate is so complicated that I dont think anyone wins and a huge amount of valid and silly right wing points are made when it appears in the media.
  • Wayne 24 May 2021 12:35:12 3,955 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    I did say that would be my last post but......... one of my friends just retweeted this, which I think is a decent example of the kind of thing I am getting at:

    https://twitter.com/Jefflez/status/1396733962509225984
    Out of context, that statistic sounds like a good thing.
    Something tells me my optimism will be destroyed if I go read some of those articles.
  • Your-Mother 24 May 2021 14:06:57 8,025 posts
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    Decks wrote:
    KD wrote:
    Is this argument over just MTF trans or includes FTM? Sometimes the biggest debates avoid all the sides and non binary never mentioned.
    I'd say FTM wouldn't have any kind of advantages so it's not really an issue.
    I mean, they have an advantage when they’re forced to compete in their assigned at birth gender, which seems to be the big sticking point for people Mentioned this before but - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title
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