Following UK Politics Thread Page 399

  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 13:49:32
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I invited a discussion once youíd responded to a series of antisemitic posts by focussing on how much you agreed with some of them.
    Because it doesnít surprise me that someone posts anti-Semitic on Facebook. It doesnít surprise
    me at all that Labour has problems with members which are anti-Semitic either through ignorance or want. It does surprise me that people pull up some of those posts and call them anti-Semitic though.

    Donít invite an adult discussion and then back track later on.

    Also, this is a forum, not a live chat room. People will post when they have time spare to.

    Edited by AaronTurner at 13:51:23 13-10-2019
  • monkman76 13 Oct 2019 13:51:01 16,157 posts
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    But why is that the thing to focus on? Why donít the posts you agree are anti Semitic seem to bother you?
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Oct 2019 13:54:47 23,445 posts
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    It's like if England said any white people can come live here because we like the whites, no question, but fuck the Welsh. (Actually I think the Tory government probably would like that policy...)

    😄 Yep. I actually had a nutter Tory a couple of weeks back talking about how the Tories have never done anything bad in Wales. That person was obviously so barmy there seemed little point countering their madness with information.
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 13:56:49
    monkman76 wrote:
    But why is that the thing to focus on? Why donít the posts you agree are anti Semitic seem to bother you?
    Bothered? Because some numpty on the internet is posting that stuff? Iím no more or less bothered with that then any ignoramous posting racist stuff on the internet. If you posted some other numpty that hated black people, what would you want me to do?

    The labour thing has been done to death, it doesnít surprise me in the least that there are racists or anti-Semite members in the party.

    Iím more surprised that equating israel as apartheid is seen as anti-Semitic.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 13:57:55 20,043 posts
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    I posted a link to some antisemitic content to demonstrate a Labourís ongoing issue with institutional racism.

    Your direct response was ďI couldnít agree more with some with some of his tweetsĒ.

    Even through a perfectly reasonable response to that would have been offence/outrage, I attempted once again to try and understand your views and discuss them with you reasonably. And yet again you carefully avoid doing so, and imply Iím cynically manipulating the conversation to somehow get you to say racist things.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 13:59:42 20,043 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Iím more surprised that equating israel as apartheid is seen as anti-Semitic.
    And yet again, it isnít. There is nothing in the IHR definition that says this. Nobody has said this.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 14:00:24 20,043 posts
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    And itís not some numpty. Itís the newly elected Secretary of Labour Redditch CLP.
  • monkman76 13 Oct 2019 14:00:35 16,157 posts
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    Itís not just anybody though is it, itís someone whoís been elected to a position of seniority in a party thatís supposed to be progressive.
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 14:00:43
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I posted a link to some antisemitic content to demonstrate a Labourís ongoing issue with institutional racism.

    Your direct response was ďI couldnít agree more with some with some of his tweetsĒ.

    Even through a perfectly reasonable response to that would have been offence/outrage, I attempted once again to try and understand your views and discuss them with you reasonably. And yet again you carefully avoid doing so, and imply Iím cynically manipulating the conversation to somehow get you to say racist things.
    Just what is it you think Iím avoiding?
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 14:03:31 20,043 posts
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    For example youíve repeatedly avoided telling me what specifically you think is ridiculous about the IHRC definition of antisemitism, apart from the bit about apartheid you keep inventing.

    Edited by You-can-call-me-kal at 14:05:10 13-10-2019
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 14:11:53 20,043 posts
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    While weíre on the subject Iím also interested to know how youíd respond to someone posting a bunch of KKK type conspiracy theories, or Katie Hopkins UK is an ISIS Islamist enclave type stuff, and someone else responding ďI couldnít agree more with some of their tweetsĒ.

    Would you take it as implied that the agreement is excepting all the racist stuff?

    Would that make it ok?

    Would you expect black or Muslim members of the forum to patiently explain why thatís so problematic without getting upset?

    Would most of the people reading this thread just quietly allow that to happen?
  • RyanDS 13 Oct 2019 14:14:50 13,278 posts
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    Kal. I would appreciate your take on my previous post page about Israel. It is why I dislike that one section of the definitions.
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Oct 2019 14:15:33 23,445 posts
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    I am not sure how I feel about dredging up comments on social media to condemn someone. I am fairly sure every person with a low UID on here can be acussed of homophobia, sexism, racism, et al. I may have been reading Jon Ronson's So You've Been Publically Shamed.

    How old are the comments from that link? One of them is a year ago and is a meme and the implication of that is toxic for sure, playing into a load of conspiracism. I hadn't actually heard that the Jews did a 9/11, what a fucking stupid opinion that is. That is pretty damming too.

    Just to be clear, I have no dog in this fight, I just find the zombie comments being recycled to then judge the character of someone a little uncomfortable. I dread to think of some of the things I have posted on here when I was young. I was considering deleting my account and re-registering the other day for this reason.
  • JamboWayOh 13 Oct 2019 14:19:06 19,988 posts
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    @Mr_Sleep

    Look at the image you can see that dates, earliest 2012, latest 2018. I think it's fair to say that the person in question hasn't really changed their worldview. Plus they're not a stupid teenager so they can't really say they didn't know what they were doing.
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Oct 2019 14:24:40 23,445 posts
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    @JamboWayOh that is fair. The 2018 one is pretty damning. I do, however, think that posting image captures without any surrounding context is bad practice. This thought process is perhaps not particularly applicable to this bloke as there is no context to posting a meme about Jews being a controlling factor in 9/11 to make money. It truly does speak for itself.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 14:29:07 20,043 posts
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    RyanDS wrote:
    Kal. I would appreciate your take on my previous post page about Israel. It is why I dislike that one section of the definitions.
    @RyanDS

    I think you might have a couple of misconceptions. Anyone can go and live in Israel. Thereís just a specific policy that Jews are guaranteed the right to live there. But like anywhere there is a process for anyone immigrating and many non Jews do, including Arabs and Muslims. The ethnic diversity of Israel is huge and thereís complete freedom of religion there, and Jews have no more rights than anyone else. Yes, Netanyahu has been saying some scary things about changing that, but currently there is no apartheid within Israel itself (that relates to Gaza). Iím really confused about your point about the rule of return explicitly stating it wants a racist state. Where have you got that from? Iím not saying there arenít interracial problems and it can get quite bad, but I donít recognise your perception of it.

    The Gaza situation is where there are huge issues. Iíve already gone into that in some detail from my perspective.
  • JamboWayOh 13 Oct 2019 14:32:03 19,988 posts
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    @Mr_Sleep

    I agree it can be very unwise to post pictures with no context but this individual definitely has form and as you say there's no confusion in what they're trying to say.
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 14:38:59
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    For example youíve repeatedly avoided telling me what specifically you think is ridiculous about the IHRC definition of antisemitism, apart from the bit about apartheid you keep inventing.
    I havenít invented anything, the apartheid comment was selected alongside a number of anti-Semitic memes. I never said that was in the definition. Iím surprised people think that comment is anti-Semitic.

    I think pretty much any comment regarding Israel in the Ihrc definition is needless, but in particular the parts regarding Israel being a racist endeavour and the comparison with nazi Germany.
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 14:40:40
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    While weíre on the subject Iím also interested to know how youíd respond to someone posting a bunch of KKK type conspiracy theories, or Katie Hopkins UK is an ISIS Islamist enclave type stuff, and someone else responding ďI couldnít agree more with some of their tweetsĒ.

    Would you take it as implied that the agreement is excepting all the racist stuff?

    Would that make it ok?

    Would you expect black or Muslim members of the forum to patiently explain why thatís so problematic without getting upset?

    Would most of the people reading this thread just quietly allow that to happen?
    The thing is that those cases donít have a contentious set of rules defining them, anti-semetism does.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 14:52:24 20,043 posts
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    Actually I posted about the controversy around the APPG definition of Islamophobia and the Tory partyís rejection of it earlier this year, in this thread. Like myself, nobody seemed to have any problem at all with Muslims defining the terms, despite the Tories arguing they limited freedom of speech. Itís an incredibly similar situation to Labour antisemitism.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 14:54:41 20,043 posts
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    So maybe out of the memes that were posted you could identity which you think couldnít agree more with (plural), and which you think are problematic due to the contentious definition of antisemitism.
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 14:54:54
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Actually I posted about the controversy around the APPG definition of Islamophobia and the Tory partyís rejection of it earlier this year, in this thread. Like myself, nobody seemed to have any problem at all with Muslims defining the terms, despite the Tories arguing they limited freedom of speech. Itís an incredibly similar situation to Labour antisemitism.
    Iím not understanding your point here.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 14:55:43 20,043 posts
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    And just to be super super clear, nobody has a problem with the apartheid he (we can even ignore the Nazi word in that one if it helps).
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 14:56:57
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    So maybe out of the memes that were posted you could identity which you think couldnít agree more with (plural), and which you think are problematic due to the contentious definition of antisemitism.
    I couldnít agree more that Israel should be compared with apartheid and nazi states.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 14:58:02 20,043 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Actually I posted about the controversy around the APPG definition of Islamophobia and the Tory partyís rejection of it earlier this year, in this thread. Like myself, nobody seemed to have any problem at all with Muslims defining the terms, despite the Tories arguing they limited freedom of speech. Itís an incredibly similar situation to Labour antisemitism.
    Iím not understanding your point here.
    That there is a definition of Islamophobia that is contentious for very similar reasons to the definition of antisemitism. And that unlike the antisemitism one you never mention it in relation to Tory Islamophobia.
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 14:59:45
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Actually I posted about the controversy around the APPG definition of Islamophobia and the Tory partyís rejection of it earlier this year, in this thread. Like myself, nobody seemed to have any problem at all with Muslims defining the terms, despite the Tories arguing they limited freedom of speech. Itís an incredibly similar situation to Labour antisemitism.
    Iím not understanding your point here.
    That there is a definition of Islamophobia that is contentious for very similar reasons to the definition of antisemitism. And that unlike the antisemitism one you never mention it in relation to Tory Islamophobia.
    I havenít even seen the posts youíre talking about and I donít know the definition in the APPG. I donít get your point though?
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 15:04:06 20,043 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    While weíre on the subject Iím also interested to know how youíd respond to someone posting... Katie Hopkins UK is an ISIS Islamist enclave type stuff, and someone else responding ďI couldnít agree more with some of their tweetsĒ.

    Would you take it as implied that the agreement is excepting all the racist stuff?

    Would that make it ok?

    Would you expect black or Muslim members of the forum to patiently explain why thatís so problematic without getting upset?

    Would most of the people reading this thread just quietly allow that to happen?
    The thing is that those cases donít have a contentious set of rules defining them, anti-semetism does.
    Iím referring to this. Youíre saying you couldnít agree more with some of the antismetic tweets is the same as someone saying they couldnít agree more with some Islamophobia tweets. Because your justification is that there is a contentious definition of antisemetism and Iím pointing out there is an equally contentious definition of Islamophobia.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 15:05:16 20,043 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    So maybe out of the memes that were posted you could identity which you think couldnít agree more with (plural), and which you think are problematic due to the contentious definition of antisemitism.
    I couldnít agree more that Israel should be compared with apartheid and nazi states.
    Which was one out of several tweets, and you said you couldnít agree more with some of his tweets.
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 15:08:05
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    While weíre on the subject Iím also interested to know how youíd respond to someone posting... Katie Hopkins UK is an ISIS Islamist enclave type stuff, and someone else responding ďI couldnít agree more with some of their tweetsĒ.

    Would you take it as implied that the agreement is excepting all the racist stuff?

    Would that make it ok?

    Would you expect black or Muslim members of the forum to patiently explain why thatís so problematic without getting upset?

    Would most of the people reading this thread just quietly allow that to happen?
    The thing is that those cases donít have a contentious set of rules defining them, anti-semetism does.
    Iím referring to this. Youíre saying you couldnít agree more with some of the antismetic tweets is the same as someone saying they couldnít agree more with some Islamophobia tweets. Because your justification is that there is a contentious definition of antisemetism and Iím pointing out there is an equally contentious definition of Islamophobia.
    Right, but I donít understand what youíre getting at. This is a hypothetical situation which I havenít seen or commented on. I mean I donít see what this conversation has to do with islamophobia other than to get into a tit for tat conversation. If you want to ask me about the APPG definition that Iíve never read then by all means go for it.
  • Deleted user 13 October 2019 15:11:44
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    While weíre on the subject Iím also interested to know how youíd respond to someone posting... Katie Hopkins UK is an ISIS Islamist enclave type stuff, and someone else responding ďI couldnít agree more with some of their tweetsĒ.

    Would you take it as implied that the agreement is excepting all the racist stuff?

    Would that make it ok?

    Would you expect black or Muslim members of the forum to patiently explain why thatís so problematic without getting upset?

    Would most of the people reading this thread just quietly allow that to happen?
    The thing is that those cases donít have a contentious set of rules defining them, anti-semetism does.
    Iím referring to this. Youíre saying you couldnít agree more with some of the antismetic tweets is the same as someone saying they couldnít agree more with some Islamophobia tweets. Because your justification is that there is a contentious definition of antisemetism and Iím pointing out there is an equally contentious definition of Islamophobia.
    I never said I agreed with anti-Semitic tweets.
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