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It’s not tit for tat. I’m trying to make you see this conversation from an outside perspective by asking how you’d feel if someone else responded as you have, in a conversation about other forms of racism. You swerved that by saying those other forms of racism don’t have contentious definitions, and I pointed out that’s not the case. |
UK Politics Thread
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You-can-call-me-kal 17,917 posts
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AaronTurner 11,426 posts
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Registered 15 years agoI haven’t swerved anything and I haven’t said I agree with anti-Semitic tweets. I don’t know the definition of islamophobia by the APPG but if it’s contentious and there are issues with it that I agree with them I’d say so, but that’s hypothetical so I don’t see the point of bringing it up? -
fontgeeksogood 7,565 posts
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Registered 2 years agoFine people on both sides -
Mr_Sleep 22,908 posts
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Registered 18 years agofontgeeksogood wrote:
You're are a fine person...hmm,that didnt work.
Fine people on both sides -
You-can-call-me-kal 17,917 posts
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Registered 14 years agoAaronTurner wrote:
Ok, so now that you know there is a contentious definition of Islamophobia, I’ll ask again.
I haven’t swerved anything and I haven’t said I agree with anti-Semitic tweets. I don’t know the definition of islamophobia by the APPG but if it’s contentious and there are issues with it that I agree with them I’d say so, but that’s hypothetical so I don’t see the point of bringing it up?
If someone posted a whole bunch of Katie Hopkins type Islamophobic memes about Britain and ISIS and such, and someone responded by saying “I couldn’t agree more with some of his tweets though”, and then went to say that people should be allowed to criticise ISIS without being accused of Islamophobia, would you see that as problematic?
Just to clarify once again why I’m asking you that, is because I think it’s a relatable scenario, and I’m wondering if removing the subject of antisemitism helps you see it with a different perspective. -
fontgeeksogood 7,565 posts
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Registered 2 years agoMr_Sleep wrote:
;_;
fontgeeksogood wrote:
You're are a fine person...hmm,that didnt work.
Fine people on both sides -
AaronTurner 11,426 posts
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Registered 15 years agoI just don’t see how you think that’s relatable at all. If you want to make a specific point about the APPG definition and then I can tell you whether I agree with it or not. -
AaronTurner 11,426 posts
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Registered 15 years agoAnd for context, the conversation would have to include years or months of two individuals holding opposing views on something. -
You-can-call-me-kal 17,917 posts
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Registered 14 years agoOk fine let’s ignore that then.
Let’s focus on this.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGvHeivWkAA4B-9?format=jpg&name=large
Your response to this set of highly racist tweets by a newly elected Labour CLP Secretary was:
A) say you couldn’t agree more with some of them
B) lament the inability to criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism
C) criticise the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism
Do you think that is the response of someone who recognises their harmfulness and has empathy and sympathy for the victims of that potential harm? -
AaronTurner 11,426 posts
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Registered 15 years agoActually that’s not what my response was. “I couldn’t agree more with some of his tweets though”, as in even so, some of the tweets aren’t anti-Semitic. I then go on to describe which ones. This is because at the end of the day, for me, one persons tweets don’t mean much - but I was surprised that some legitimate tweets seemed to be getting defined as anti-Semitic. That does concern me more. -
AaronTurner 11,426 posts
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Registered 15 years agoquote]AaronTurner wrote:
I couldn’t agree more with some of his tweets though. It’s a pretty sad day when calling out Palestine/israel as apartheid is denounced as being anti-Semitic. This is why those ridiculous set of rules defining anti-semetism will always be controversial.AaronTurner wrote:
I don’t think there is much, if anything wrong with what I said.
The middle bottom one clearly says apartheid. admittedly I don’t really understand how Facebook works, but some of the posts don’t seem to be him. It looks like a load of conspiracy stuff with anti-Semitic overtones and of which I know admittedly little about, but the problem I have is that there are what appear to me to be completely legitimate complaints in there that are equated as anti-Semitic.
As I said, you invited conversation and then seemed to retract that later on. I could see the path it was leading down at that point. I’ve kept conversing because you seemed adamant that I need to answer some questions, which I have tried to do as honestly as I can, but you’re still accusing me of swerving your questions. -
You-can-call-me-kal 17,917 posts
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Registered 14 years agoI find it incredibly odd that in a slew of racist posts, your biggest concern is qualifying whether one of them is actually racist. Then extending that point to imply a lack of legitimacy in the wider accusations of antisemitism is implicit of an unsavoury cynicism at best. -
AaronTurner 11,426 posts
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Registered 15 years agoRight, well I’ve answered your first point on two or three occasions in this thread. I’m not sure what you’re getting at with your second point, I’m not implying a lack of legitimacy in other accusations, I think I’ve been quite clear in what I feel isn’t anti-Semitic and that is regarding criticism of Israel. -
simpleexplodingmaybe 11,368 posts
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Registered 4 years agoNo one here thinks criticising the behaviour of the Israeli state is antisemitic. It's the wilful and deliberate turning of a blind eye to all the very obvious antisemitism that can occur adjacent to it that is the issue. -
simpleexplodingmaybe 11,368 posts
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Registered 4 years agoAlso
This Queens Speech is a total shitshow -
You-can-call-me-kal 17,917 posts
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Registered 14 years agosimpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
It’s also the conflation of the two to allow criticism of Israel to justify antisemitism, which is what the original link was clearly doing.
No one here thinks criticising the behaviour of the Israeli state is antisemitic. It's the wilful and deliberate turning of a blind eye to all the very obvious antisemitism that can occur adjacent to it that is the issue.
I find it so odd that someone’s takeaway from that is that the problem is you can’t criticise Israel without being antisemitic. If you really cared about Palestine so much surely you’d be angry for conflating support for them with Jew hatred. That doesn’t help anyone, least of all Palestinians.
The group MAAS (Muslims Against Antisemitism) have done a number of excellent pieces on this exact subject. -
MrWonderstuff 3,055 posts
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Registered 15 years agosimpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
Didnt see it - what happend?
Also
This Queens Speech is a total shitshow -
Psychotext 65,792 posts
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Registered 13 years agoIt's a party political broadcast as expected. -
AaronTurner 11,426 posts
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Registered 15 years agoAaronTurner wrote:
Just so we are clear here:
The middle bottom one clearly says apartheid. admittedly I don’t really understand how Facebook works, but some of the posts don’t seem to be him. It looks like a load of conspiracy stuff with anti-Semitic overtones and of which I know admittedly little about, but the problem I have is that there are what appear to me to be completely legitimate complaints in there that are equated as anti-Semitic.
I never said anyone here did think criticising Israel is anti Semitic. I said that it’s sad that someone has put legitimate criticisms of Israel in an image that collated anti-Semitic posts.
I haven’t conflated anything here, it was in the original post made by you Kalel.
I am angry that the the posts are mixed together, that was my point.
For the record also, do you actually believe that guy hates Jews? I mean, I don’t know the answer there but that’s a pretty big leap. He might be ignorant, he might be a conspiracy nut, he might be a Jew hater. -
Dgzter 2,851 posts
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Registered 10 years agoFoolishly, I turned Parliament.tv on. Really nice to listen to these fucking Tories, full of japes, guffaws, back slaps and chortles.
It's a truly edifying spectacle to see them all having such a good time. Really fucking funny, this. -
You-can-call-me-kal 17,917 posts
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Registered 14 years agoAaronTurner wrote:
Without wishing to get into it all again, this REALLY (!!) doesn’t read as you being sad that he’d conflated legitimate criticism of Israel with a series of highly antisemetic memes. It doesn’t read as you recognising the antisemitism in any way, and instead it feels more like an attack on those calling out antisemitism.
I couldn’t agree more with some of his tweets though. It’s a pretty sad day when calling out Palestine/israel as apartheid is denounced as being anti-Semitic. This is why those ridiculous set of rules defining anti-semetism will always be controversial.
Regarding whether I think he’s a Jew hater, we must have had the discussion about the nuances of racism ten times now. Most racism isn’t full on race hatred/superiority. Most racism is based on extremely nuanced biases and subtle prejudices. That’s why the IHRC definition is important (if debatably flawed) because it attempts to decode the more subtle forms that are so common such as holding Jews collectively accountable for the behaviour of Israel, believing them to have undue influence of politics/media etc
I think it’s pretty clear that he exhibits a number of those beliefs from those memes.
Edited by You-can-call-me-kal at 15:09:11 14-10-2019 -
AaronTurner 11,426 posts
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Registered 15 years agoLike I said, I’m really not that bothered by what one person said on the internet. I wouldn’t be surprised if you posted links to people being racist in any number of ways. -
JamboWayOh 15,740 posts
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Registered 6 years agosimpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
Yep. Seriously what in the everloving fuck was that?! So we've got the law and order bs, the voter suppression and if they managed to put the bit about helping soldiers get off murder charges I would have actually thought I was watching a Republican State of The Union speech.
Also
This Queens Speech is a total shitshow -
You-can-call-me-kal 17,917 posts
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Registered 14 years agoAnd again, the significance was that that one person has just been voted Secretary of a Labour CLP, so in the context of a discussion of whether Labour has an institutional problem with racism, it’s significant. -
monkman76 15,362 posts
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Registered 12 years agoThe voter ID thing is especially sinister IMO. Pretty naked attempt to suppress poor / young / ethnic minority votes, as you say. -
JamboWayOh 15,740 posts
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Registered 6 years agomonkman76 wrote:
It's a fucking outrage is what it is and the morons will gladly repeat the soundbite of 'protecting the democracy and integrity of the electoral system'. They must have been pissing themselves laughing when they wrote that one.
The voter ID thing is especially sinister IMO. Pretty naked attempt to suppress poor / young / ethnic minority votes, as you say. -
You-can-call-me-kal 17,917 posts
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Registered 14 years agomonkman76 wrote:
Yeah it’s completely blatant, and yet another trick stolen from Trump/Bannon’s book.
The voter ID thing is especially sinister IMO. Pretty naked attempt to suppress poor / young / ethnic minority votes, as you say. -
Graxlar_v3 8,340 posts
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Registered 2 years agoSo, does Boris Johnson not know how to respond to criticism outside of 'name calling'?
The Queens speech was a farce, it didnt seem like it had any real thought put into it and was quite disgusting to be fair. i am actually surprised i didn't hear the queen call out Corbyn as a chicken shit poo poo head, as i imagine that it was scrawled on the speech in big fat orange crayon. -
Frogofdoom 14,620 posts
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Registered 7 years agoIt does my fucking head in, parliament is basically just a school playground since he got in. It's always been shit but this is next level now. -
AaronTurner wrote:
Just to reiterate, I think this post is extremely disingenuous. The reason I’m posting stuff in this thread - the politics thread - is to demonstrate the issue Labour have with antisemtism.
Like I said, I’m really not that bothered by what one person said on the internet. I wouldn’t be surprised if you posted links to people being racist in any number of ways.
The irony here is that the main reason I do it is to persuade people specifically like you. Not to preach to the choir for those that already see it.
The more of these I post, the more I hope that you’ll concede that it is actually a specific (not common or garden racist hate but specifically related to imperialistic conspiracy), and widespread within leadership positions in the party (individuals like this).
Yet these two points are the things you seem to wilfully fail to recognise.
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