Following UK Politics Thread Page 400

  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 15:12:06 17,917 posts
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    Itís not tit for tat.

    Iím trying to make you see this conversation from an outside perspective by asking how youíd feel if someone else responded as you have, in a conversation about other forms of racism.

    You swerved that by saying those other forms of racism donít have contentious definitions, and I pointed out thatís not the case.
  • AaronTurner 13 Oct 2019 15:15:53 11,426 posts
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    I havenít swerved anything and I havenít said I agree with anti-Semitic tweets. I donít know the definition of islamophobia by the APPG but if itís contentious and there are issues with it that I agree with them Iíd say so, but thatís hypothetical so I donít see the point of bringing it up?
  • fontgeeksogood 13 Oct 2019 15:20:05 7,565 posts
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    Fine people on both sides
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Oct 2019 15:22:36 22,908 posts
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    fontgeeksogood wrote:
    Fine people on both sides
    You're are a fine person...hmm,that didnt work.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 15:23:26 17,917 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    I havenít swerved anything and I havenít said I agree with anti-Semitic tweets. I donít know the definition of islamophobia by the APPG but if itís contentious and there are issues with it that I agree with them Iíd say so, but thatís hypothetical so I donít see the point of bringing it up?
    Ok, so now that you know there is a contentious definition of Islamophobia, Iíll ask again.

    If someone posted a whole bunch of Katie Hopkins type Islamophobic memes about Britain and ISIS and such, and someone responded by saying ďI couldnít agree more with some of his tweets thoughĒ, and then went to say that people should be allowed to criticise ISIS without being accused of Islamophobia, would you see that as problematic?

    Just to clarify once again why Iím asking you that, is because I think itís a relatable scenario, and Iím wondering if removing the subject of antisemitism helps you see it with a different perspective.
  • fontgeeksogood 13 Oct 2019 15:24:54 7,565 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    fontgeeksogood wrote:
    Fine people on both sides
    You're are a fine person...hmm,that didnt work.
    ;_;
  • AaronTurner 13 Oct 2019 15:26:39 11,426 posts
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    I just donít see how you think thatís relatable at all. If you want to make a specific point about the APPG definition and then I can tell you whether I agree with it or not.
  • AaronTurner 13 Oct 2019 15:27:38 11,426 posts
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    And for context, the conversation would have to include years or months of two individuals holding opposing views on something.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 15:35:09 17,917 posts
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    Ok fine letís ignore that then.

    Letís focus on this.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGvHeivWkAA4B-9?format=jpg&name=large

    Your response to this set of highly racist tweets by a newly elected Labour CLP Secretary was:

    A) say you couldnít agree more with some of them
    B) lament the inability to criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism
    C) criticise the International Holocaust Remembrance Allianceís definition of antisemitism

    Do you think that is the response of someone who recognises their harmfulness and has empathy and sympathy for the victims of that potential harm?
  • AaronTurner 13 Oct 2019 15:47:09 11,426 posts
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    Actually thatís not what my response was. ďI couldnít agree more with some of his tweets thoughĒ, as in even so, some of the tweets arenít anti-Semitic. I then go on to describe which ones. This is because at the end of the day, for me, one persons tweets donít mean much - but I was surprised that some legitimate tweets seemed to be getting defined as anti-Semitic. That does concern me more.
  • AaronTurner 13 Oct 2019 15:52:39 11,426 posts
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    quote]AaronTurner wrote:
    I couldnít agree more with some of his tweets though. Itís a pretty sad day when calling out Palestine/israel as apartheid is denounced as being anti-Semitic. This is why those ridiculous set of rules defining anti-semetism will always be controversial.
    AaronTurner wrote:
    The middle bottom one clearly says apartheid. admittedly I donít really understand how Facebook works, but some of the posts donít seem to be him. It looks like a load of conspiracy stuff with anti-Semitic overtones and of which I know admittedly little about, but the problem I have is that there are what appear to me to be completely legitimate complaints in there that are equated as anti-Semitic.
    I donít think there is much, if anything wrong with what I said.

    As I said, you invited conversation and then seemed to retract that later on. I could see the path it was leading down at that point. Iíve kept conversing because you seemed adamant that I need to answer some questions, which I have tried to do as honestly as I can, but youíre still accusing me of swerving your questions.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 13 Oct 2019 15:55:15 17,917 posts
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    I find it incredibly odd that in a slew of racist posts, your biggest concern is qualifying whether one of them is actually racist. Then extending that point to imply a lack of legitimacy in the wider accusations of antisemitism is implicit of an unsavoury cynicism at best.
  • AaronTurner 13 Oct 2019 15:59:56 11,426 posts
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    Right, well Iíve answered your first point on two or three occasions in this thread. Iím not sure what youíre getting at with your second point, Iím not implying a lack of legitimacy in other accusations, I think Iíve been quite clear in what I feel isnít anti-Semitic and that is regarding criticism of Israel.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Oct 2019 14:29:50 11,368 posts
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    No one here thinks criticising the behaviour of the Israeli state is antisemitic. It's the wilful and deliberate turning of a blind eye to all the very obvious antisemitism that can occur adjacent to it that is the issue.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Oct 2019 14:30:28 11,368 posts
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    Also

    This Queens Speech is a total shitshow
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Oct 2019 14:40:02 17,917 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    No one here thinks criticising the behaviour of the Israeli state is antisemitic. It's the wilful and deliberate turning of a blind eye to all the very obvious antisemitism that can occur adjacent to it that is the issue.
    Itís also the conflation of the two to allow criticism of Israel to justify antisemitism, which is what the original link was clearly doing.

    I find it so odd that someoneís takeaway from that is that the problem is you canít criticise Israel without being antisemitic. If you really cared about Palestine so much surely youíd be angry for conflating support for them with Jew hatred. That doesnít help anyone, least of all Palestinians.

    The group MAAS (Muslims Against Antisemitism) have done a number of excellent pieces on this exact subject.
  • MrWonderstuff 14 Oct 2019 14:53:37 3,055 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    Also

    This Queens Speech is a total shitshow
    Didnt see it - what happend?
  • Psychotext 14 Oct 2019 14:57:26 65,792 posts
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    It's a party political broadcast as expected.
  • AaronTurner 14 Oct 2019 14:58:36 11,426 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    The middle bottom one clearly says apartheid. admittedly I donít really understand how Facebook works, but some of the posts donít seem to be him. It looks like a load of conspiracy stuff with anti-Semitic overtones and of which I know admittedly little about, but the problem I have is that there are what appear to me to be completely legitimate complaints in there that are equated as anti-Semitic.
    Just so we are clear here:

    I never said anyone here did think criticising Israel is anti Semitic. I said that itís sad that someone has put legitimate criticisms of Israel in an image that collated anti-Semitic posts.

    I havenít conflated anything here, it was in the original post made by you Kalel.

    I am angry that the the posts are mixed together, that was my point.

    For the record also, do you actually believe that guy hates Jews? I mean, I donít know the answer there but thatís a pretty big leap. He might be ignorant, he might be a conspiracy nut, he might be a Jew hater.
  • Dgzter 14 Oct 2019 14:58:40 2,851 posts
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    Foolishly, I turned Parliament.tv on. Really nice to listen to these fucking Tories, full of japes, guffaws, back slaps and chortles.

    It's a truly edifying spectacle to see them all having such a good time. Really fucking funny, this.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Oct 2019 15:08:11 17,917 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    I couldnít agree more with some of his tweets though. Itís a pretty sad day when calling out Palestine/israel as apartheid is denounced as being anti-Semitic. This is why those ridiculous set of rules defining anti-semetism will always be controversial.
    Without wishing to get into it all again, this REALLY (!!) doesnít read as you being sad that heíd conflated legitimate criticism of Israel with a series of highly antisemetic memes. It doesnít read as you recognising the antisemitism in any way, and instead it feels more like an attack on those calling out antisemitism.

    Regarding whether I think heís a Jew hater, we must have had the discussion about the nuances of racism ten times now. Most racism isnít full on race hatred/superiority. Most racism is based on extremely nuanced biases and subtle prejudices. Thatís why the IHRC definition is important (if debatably flawed) because it attempts to decode the more subtle forms that are so common such as holding Jews collectively accountable for the behaviour of Israel, believing them to have undue influence of politics/media etc

    I think itís pretty clear that he exhibits a number of those beliefs from those memes.

    Edited by You-can-call-me-kal at 15:09:11 14-10-2019
  • AaronTurner 14 Oct 2019 15:33:57 11,426 posts
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    Like I said, Iím really not that bothered by what one person said on the internet. I wouldnít be surprised if you posted links to people being racist in any number of ways.
  • JamboWayOh 14 Oct 2019 15:45:02 15,740 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    Also

    This Queens Speech is a total shitshow
    Yep. Seriously what in the everloving fuck was that?! So we've got the law and order bs, the voter suppression and if they managed to put the bit about helping soldiers get off murder charges I would have actually thought I was watching a Republican State of The Union speech.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Oct 2019 15:45:47 17,917 posts
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    And again, the significance was that that one person has just been voted Secretary of a Labour CLP, so in the context of a discussion of whether Labour has an institutional problem with racism, itís significant.
  • monkman76 14 Oct 2019 15:47:14 15,362 posts
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    The voter ID thing is especially sinister IMO. Pretty naked attempt to suppress poor / young / ethnic minority votes, as you say.
  • JamboWayOh 14 Oct 2019 15:50:48 15,740 posts
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    monkman76 wrote:
    The voter ID thing is especially sinister IMO. Pretty naked attempt to suppress poor / young / ethnic minority votes, as you say.
    It's a fucking outrage is what it is and the morons will gladly repeat the soundbite of 'protecting the democracy and integrity of the electoral system'. They must have been pissing themselves laughing when they wrote that one.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Oct 2019 15:51:30 17,917 posts
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    monkman76 wrote:
    The voter ID thing is especially sinister IMO. Pretty naked attempt to suppress poor / young / ethnic minority votes, as you say.
    Yeah itís completely blatant, and yet another trick stolen from Trump/Bannonís book.
  • Graxlar_v3 14 Oct 2019 15:52:18 8,340 posts
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    So, does Boris Johnson not know how to respond to criticism outside of 'name calling'?

    The Queens speech was a farce, it didnt seem like it had any real thought put into it and was quite disgusting to be fair. i am actually surprised i didn't hear the queen call out Corbyn as a chicken shit poo poo head, as i imagine that it was scrawled on the speech in big fat orange crayon.
  • Frogofdoom 14 Oct 2019 15:57:03 14,620 posts
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    It does my fucking head in, parliament is basically just a school playground since he got in. It's always been shit but this is next level now.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Oct 2019 16:01:17 17,917 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Like I said, Iím really not that bothered by what one person said on the internet. I wouldnít be surprised if you posted links to people being racist in any number of ways.
    Just to reiterate, I think this post is extremely disingenuous. The reason Iím posting stuff in this thread - the politics thread - is to demonstrate the issue Labour have with antisemtism.

    The irony here is that the main reason I do it is to persuade people specifically like you. Not to preach to the choir for those that already see it.

    The more of these I post, the more I hope that youíll concede that it is actually a specific (not common or garden racist hate but specifically related to imperialistic conspiracy), and widespread within leadership positions in the party (individuals like this).

    Yet these two points are the things you seem to wilfully fail to recognise.
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