Following UK Politics Thread Page 439

  • Deleted user 9 November 2019 08:37:41
    Anti-Semitic tropes seem to crossover with a lot of real problems that Labour members have with the world, given that and how you're always telling us how nuanced anti-semetism is it really doesn't surprise me one bit that something like this can happen. I don't even understand how you think someone can tell there is a Jew in the room to abuse. The internet is a pretty cold place where one mistake and you're plastered across it as a racist.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 9 Nov 2019 08:37:57 20,043 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    Very uncomfortable with calling someone racist over that.
    Come now, I fail to believe anyone using that term doesn't do so without knowing its origins or the connotations
    Blaming a lack of education when dropping a Shakespearean reference is a bit of disconnect.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 9 Nov 2019 08:39:20 20,043 posts
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    Wonít somebody think of the poor racists.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 9 Nov 2019 08:43:27 13,966 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    Is there a running list of the calamitous candidates that are having to pull out, across all parties? Utterly shambolic
    I've got

    Labour for antisemitism x 2
    Tory for rape-apologism x 3(?)
    Brexit for being a space alien x 1

    It feels like I'm missing someone though
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 9 Nov 2019 08:45:09 13,966 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Anti-Semitic tropes seem to crossover with a lot of real problems that Labour members have with the world
    Where to begin ...
  • You-can-call-me-kal 9 Nov 2019 08:46:52 20,043 posts
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    Poor guy has previously accidentally dropped n and p bombs as well.

    https://twitter.com/theredroar/status/1192760852186910721?s=21
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 9 Nov 2019 08:49:29 13,966 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Poor guy has previously accidentally dropped n and p bombs as well.

    https://twitter.com/theredroar/status/1192760852186910721?s=21
    Wow

    Fuck

    That

    Guy
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 9 Nov 2019 08:50:41 13,966 posts
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    I suppose it's no surprise that loyalty trumps principle in the current Labour Party but that is some blatant shit
  • Dougs 9 Nov 2019 08:59:17 94,622 posts
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    Marina Hyde is brilliant again today
  • JamboWayOh 9 Nov 2019 09:10:38 19,988 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Poor guy has previously accidentally dropped n and p bombs as well.

    https://twitter.com/theredroar/status/1192760852186910721?s=21
    Yeahhhhhh, I'm still very uncomfortable with calling the guy a racist. I mean it's very easy for us on the internet to judge him saying those words but who here hasn't accidentally called a black person or Asian person those words without knowing what they meant??? I mean it's obviously a very simple mistake, especially when he called another black guy a monkey, I wasn't aware of the connection. I blame Margaret Thatcher for not giving me milk at break time.

    Edited by JamboWayOh at 09:11:07 09-11-2019

    Edited by JamboWayOh at 09:12:11 09-11-2019
  • Deleted user 9 November 2019 09:14:12
    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    Anti-Semitic tropes seem to crossover with a lot of real problems that Labour members have with the world
    Where to begin ...
    Not sure what the problem is there, it's exactly why people get caught up in this shit. Like the guy that posted an image about bankers and the recession and the image depicted was characterising a Jew, these things aren't obvious to everyone so I can exactly see why people make mistakes. It looks like this guy has historically made other comments so fair play, but the idea that a comment makes someone undoubtedly a racist doesn't sit well with me.

    Edited by AaronTurner at 09:14:46 09-11-2019
  • JamboWayOh 9 Nov 2019 09:16:29 19,988 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    Anti-Semitic tropes seem to crossover with a lot of real problems that Labour members have with the world
    Where to begin ...
    Like the guy that posted an image about bankers and the recession and the image depicted was characterising a Jew, these things aren't obvious to everyone so I can exactly see why people make mistakes.
    Come on now. That reference isn't obvious? Not at all? REALLY? Christ...
  • You-can-call-me-kal 9 Nov 2019 09:28:41 20,043 posts
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    When youíre conditioned to make a subconscious association between a certain type of behaviour and an ethnic or racial group, that is racism. When you use language that cements and propagates that association, that is racism. Being conscious and aware that youíre being racist isnít what makes it racist.

    Also constantly seeking to delegitimise instances of racism (and specifically one type of racism) is odd behaviour.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 9 Nov 2019 09:30:50 13,966 posts
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    Claiming your political beliefs are so intrinsically tied to racist tropes that you can't be blamed for not being able to tell the difference is an incredibly daft response. And precisely the kind of thing that has Jewish people nervous about the Labour leadership and it's most loyal supporters.

    And anti-capitalism and social democracy aren't inherently bound to antisemitic tropes. It's very easy to be those and not that. If an individual or movement fails to understand how then that is their personal, racist, failing.
  • Deleted user 9 November 2019 09:33:47
    That isn't what I said.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 9 Nov 2019 09:36:40 20,043 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    Claiming your political beliefs are so intrinsically tied to racist tropes that you can't be blamed for not being able to tell the difference is an incredibly daft response. And precisely the kind of thing that has Jewish people nervous about the Labour leadership and it's most loyal supporters.

    And anti-capitalism and social democracy aren't inherently bound to antisemitic tropes. It's very easy to be those and not that. If an individual or movement fails to understand how then that is their personal, racist, failing.
    And the subtext of that logic is of course that Jews are inherently right wing. And the sub-text of that logic is that Jews love money.

    It is an othering tactic designed to conveniently ignore that the majority of criticism of Labour racism comes from within the Labour Party, or if that fact is recognised they are Ďenemies withiní.
  • mothercruncher 9 Nov 2019 09:43:08 17,831 posts
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    You said weíre too quick to label, and maybe for the great unwashed thereís some truth to that, though, of course we all have a duty to examine our prejudices. But I donít think itís unfair to hold people like politicians to a much higher standard, given their position and their power. And Labour consistently fuck this area up. There is clearly a problem and itís safe to assume at this point that the left most part of the party are a safe space for those views.
  • Deleted user 9 November 2019 09:47:51
    It's not a tactic, not everyone is as enlightened as this board is on anti-Semitic tropes. I wouldn't have had a clue about Jewish caricatures or the Shylock thing. Believe it or not, I'm not actually implying Jews are right wing or that they love money, but I do think that it's easy to innocently share an image on social media by mistake and not be a racist. Just like I didn't think Hansen was a racist when he went on the BBC and talked about coloured people.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 9 Nov 2019 09:48:36 13,966 posts
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    I also want to hold Labour to a higher standard because they are largely supposed to be the biggest of the 'good guys'

    I want them to be as prejudice free as possible because the alternative is the Conservative Party and they've been baddies for so long that I think the country deserves better
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 9 Nov 2019 09:50:58 13,966 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    It's not a tactic, not everyone is as enlightened as this board is on anti-Semitic tropes. I wouldn't have had a clue about Jewish caricatures or the Shylock thing. Believe it or not, I'm not actually implying Jews are right wing or that they love money, but I do think that it's easy to innocently share an image on social media by mistake and not be a racist. Just like I didn't think Hansen was a racist when he went on the BBC and talked about coloured people.
    If you're genuine then why not believe the victims of antisemitism and learn from their experience? You seem determined to minimise and explain away at every turn instead of listening and learning
  • JamboWayOh 9 Nov 2019 09:51:35 19,988 posts
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    @AaronTurner

    You don't have a clue about Jewish caricatures? Really? Like, not at all?
  • You-can-call-me-kal 9 Nov 2019 09:56:50 20,043 posts
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    When people use stereotypical images of Jews to depict evil bankers that is indicative of subconscious racism. Whether they meant to make that association is not the point. Again people rarely intend to be racist.

    Itís a very privileged position to demand Jews be more tolerant and sympathetic to those Ďaccidentallyí perpetuating racist hatred of them. Personally my patience has run out on that score.
  • Deleted user 9 November 2019 10:02:47
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    @AaronTurner

    You don't have a clue about Jewish caricatures? Really? Like, not at all?
    Obviously not all of them, nor any of this Rothschold stuff either.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 9 Nov 2019 10:04:30 20,043 posts
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    The Alan Hansen comparison is a poor one. He didnít draw any negative association with the word Ďcolouredí. Itís still incredibly bad but again, a poor equivalence in this case.

    The word Ďshylockí was used to draw association with a certain behaviour. A better comparison would be when Ron Atkinson said - thatís what you call a typical lazy Ďn wordí - about Desailly. Itís the combination of the word and the negative behaviour that makes it racist.

    And itís also the association that makes the use of word harder to believe as accidental.
  • JamboWayOh 9 Nov 2019 10:04:49 19,988 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    @AaronTurner

    You don't have a clue about Jewish caricatures? Really? Like, not at all?
    Obviously not all of them, nor any of this Rothschold stuff either.
    So the bankers and Jewish connection, that doesn't ring any bells for you?

    Edited by JamboWayOh at 10:05:22 09-11-2019
  • Load_2.0 9 Nov 2019 10:08:23 31,885 posts
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    The Shylock one is pretty blatant to me. I dont really understand why you'd use it unless you know the character. It's like calling someone Sambo IMO.

    With imagery or criticisms of Israel or the Rothschild family I'm more inclined to see those as possibly mistakes.

    That said it's hard to ignore the racism that spews out of both parties.
  • Deleted user 9 November 2019 10:08:31
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    @AaronTurner

    You don't have a clue about Jewish caricatures? Really? Like, not at all?
    Obviously not all of them, nor any of this Rothschold stuff either.
    So the bankers and Jewish connection, that doesn't ring any bells for you?
    Yes it does, but I'd either never paid attention to or heard the Rothschild stuff until recently. It's not hard to believe that some people haven't been exposed to this.
  • Deleted user 9 November 2019 10:11:11
    Load_2.0 wrote:
    The Shylock one is pretty blatant to me. I dont really understand why you'd use it unless you know the character. It's like calling someone Sambo IMO.

    With imagery or criticisms of Israel or the Rothschild family I'm more inclined to see those as possibly mistakes.

    That said it's hard to ignore the racism that spews out of both parties.
    Id literally never heard Shylock before but then I skived most English classes as a youth.
  • mothercruncher 9 Nov 2019 10:17:03 17,831 posts
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    I donít (think, rarely discuss religion) I know any Jewish people in real life and have been an atheist since I was a kid with resultant disinterest in the various theologies. Donít use Facebook or twitter, donít mix in any circles where this specific prejudice occurs etc and consider I had a very average education in a fairly crap school and yet I know how offensive ďShylockĒ is and have a rough grasp of the Rothschild conspiracies, itís seeped in somehow.

    Come on- youíre a bright guy Aaron, I think youíve a general point about us being too quick to label sometimes but youíre being a little disingenuous here.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 9 Nov 2019 10:17:49 13,966 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    @AaronTurner

    You don't have a clue about Jewish caricatures? Really? Like, not at all?
    Obviously not all of them, nor any of this Rothschold stuff either.
    So the bankers and Jewish connection, that doesn't ring any bells for you?
    Yes it does, but I'd either never paid attention to or heard the Rothschild stuff until recently. It's not hard to believe that some people haven't been exposed to this.
    Ignorance is not a defence. Especially when these are such widely and long known tropes.

    At best it's an opportunity for reflection, humility and learning. It feels more like you're using it as an excuse to double down on the bad stuff like ignorance justifies its continuance
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