Following UK Politics Thread Page 443

  • TheSaint 10 Nov 2019 01:22:56 19,694 posts
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    Another one for Aaron to empathise with:

    https://twitter.com/miqdaad/status/1193093095233138688?s=21
  • JamboWayOh 10 Nov 2019 01:30:13 19,988 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    Another one for Aaron to empathise with:

    https://twitter.com/miqdaad/status/1193093095233138688?s=21
    #honestmistake
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 09:25:44 20,043 posts
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    Get the temptation to take the piss. Not sure it helps.

    I think itís easy to be magnanimous and philosophical about racism when you are in the privileged position of it not representing a threat to you. But at a time when extremist hateful views and actions are on the increase, minority groups are at genuine risk. A potential government that at best fails to tackle (beyond debate), and at worst enables (well evidenced) those views and actions pose a true existential threat. While level-headedness is always important, there is an urgent need to push this trend back in the right direction.

    There are without doubt times in the last couple of years when I and other Jews have let our fears affect our judgement, and perhaps on occasion we have reacted too strongly. A big part of that is a pressure and urgency to make our voices heard when feel they are not. Because itís in all of our DNA that we havenít been heard many many times isnít the past, and we know what the consequences of that are.

    Again, it is a privilege to not feel that way. It is a privilege to think racism is a secondary political issue. It is a privilege to believe it should be ignored for the greater good. Itís a privilege to accuse those who feel attacked of not being open minded, too reactionary or not listening.

    If you do these things you are not taking the intellectual or moral high ground, despite thinking you are. You are making the same mistake that has been made countless times in the past of thinking you understand an issue better than those who have intimate experience of it. You are allowing prejudice to thrive under the banner of ambiguity. Youíre allowing the semantics of tolerance to enable intolerance.

    What we need are allies who listen, understand and support. That doesnít mean unconditional agreement but if that had happened more in the last three years, the racism issue would have been addressed and Labour would have a far better chance of beating the Tories. Itís now too late, and if you find yourself asking Jews or anyone else to ignore racism, when youíve been ignoring them for the last three years on the subject, you only have yourself to blame if the Tories win.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Nov 2019 09:29:11 13,966 posts
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    Dgzter wrote:
    Yup. Quite a bit more than annoying; itís absolutely fucking scandalous.
    Misconduct in a public office but sure, leave it until after people have made a decision on whether or not he's a suitable leader for the country. It's ridiculous. An internal investigation would be bad enough but this is potentially a criminal offence. And very much in the public interest to get into as early as possible.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 09:46:15 20,043 posts
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    Robospud wrote:
    But if you spend all your time and energy attacking those whoíve done the most to fight racism, based on nonsensical conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact, then itís going to be pretty counter productive.

    But yeah, letís continue taking as gospel the word of a former Breitbart columnist that he heard a Labour MP singing a racist song two years ago then sat on it until he could pull it out to sway an election, even though people from multiple parties were on the bus at the time and none of them reported hearing it.
    See this is an excellent example of what Iím talking about. Letís say for the sake of argument this incident is fake news and didnít happen.

    It doesnít change the multiple other instances that have happened. In the last fortnight along Iíve posted articles that show senior people in the party have engaged in sharing lies about Jews being behind 9/11, Holocaust denial and Rothschild conspiracy - NONE of which have anything to do with Israel before that old chestnut comes up.

    Robospud, H1ggy, Aaron and co will say nothing in these circumstances. Absolutely nothing.

    But then when something potentially spurious gets posted they leap on the opportunity to call it fake news, a conspiracy, no basis in fact etc. It will not enter their minds that these posts are being shared out of fear. Thereís no empathy or understanding. Instead they use words like Ďconspiracyí, implying a sinister agenda.

    Ignoring all genuine incidents of racism only to leap on the potentially fake ones to hold them up as evidence of bad faith on the part of victims is not how honest allies behave.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Nov 2019 10:00:07 13,966 posts
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    @its-H1ggyLTD you don't need to be laser focused, open to victims and empathetic to their hurt and fear is where you should at least be starting
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 10:12:21 20,043 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    What do you want me to say about them?

    I wasn't even defending Carden, or claiming it as fake news. Merely pointing out the source as a curious choice from yourself.

    I've withdrawn from much of that debate on here, partly because you changed my outlook on it to a degree, and partly because we'll just never agree on some of the characters involved in the discourse.

    Time and again it is revealed that our objectives and viewpoints largely align around helping people.

    You rightly point out my status as a privileged white male, and so as Anthony says - that results in me not being as laser focussed as you on the topic that means the most to you. I can let you take the lead role on that fight.

    I just want the tories out.
    Fair enough. I do understand your conflict on this one.

    Ultimately I do think you de-prioritise the issue of racism (you did even once suggest even acknowledging the issue as true I should still vote Labour for the greater good) which worries me. And on occasion youíve veered into implying itís a right wing conspiracy which is what really troubles me. Your posts yesterday about Carden and Guido had that implication, although you didnít go balls with the accusation like Robospud always does.
  • d_h1234 10 Nov 2019 10:56:32 282 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:

    I'm uncomfortable with the culture of sitting behind a computer and destroying people for what could be mistakes.
    Racism isn't a mistake, it's a choice. You could argue it's a taught and learnt behaviour and thus not necessarily their fault, but that's a broad subject and still isn't an excuse to remain ignorant and bigoted after childhood.

    Racist people think racist things, so they occasionally say racist things. If you aren't racist, you don't think racist things and thus don't "accidentally" spout off racist things in the heat of the moment. Is that so hard to understand? The only exception might be people suffering from Tourette's syndrome.

    And just because people can be rehabilitated doesn't mean you ignore or gloss over their crimes, in fact that probably is a huge part of rehabilitation; facing what they've done and owning it, not shirking their responsibility and saying "I didn't mean it like that!", "it was a mistake!" or "you're the racists/SJWs/bullies/poopyheads!" like you're doing right now.

    You can't make excuses for people's bad behaviours, especially if you hope to rehabilitate them.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 12:49:50 20,043 posts
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    Cardenís denial is kinda interestingly worded.

    https://twitter.com/dancardenmp/status/1193131776178368513?s=21
  • Technoishmatt 10 Nov 2019 13:04:10 4,272 posts
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    Is it?
  • Darth_Flibble 10 Nov 2019 13:05:57 4,311 posts
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    Boris Johnson's Conservative party has received cash from 9 Russian donors named in a suppressed intelligence report

    Boris Johnson's Conservative party has received donations from nine Russian donors, with suspected links to the Kremlin, according to an official report which has been suppressed by the prime minister.

    Johnson chose to block publication of the report amid reported fears it could cost him the upcoming general election.

    Leaked details from the report tie Johnson's party to London-based Russian oligarchs, some of whom have known ties to the Russian security services.

    There has been a surge in donations from prominent Russians to the Conservative party over the past year.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-blocked-report-naming-tory-donors-linked-to-kremlin-2019-11?r=US&IR=T

    nothing dodgy there for the tories... no not at all
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 13:07:40 20,043 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    Is it?
    In that he doesnít actually deny it happening.
  • JoelStinty 10 Nov 2019 13:16:32 8,924 posts
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    Darth_Flibble wrote:
    Boris Johnson's Conservative party has received cash from 9 Russian donors named in a suppressed intelligence report

    Boris Johnson's Conservative party has received donations from nine Russian donors, with suspected links to the Kremlin, according to an official report which has been suppressed by the prime minister.

    Johnson chose to block publication of the report amid reported fears it could cost him the upcoming general election.

    Leaked details from the report tie Johnson's party to London-based Russian oligarchs, some of whom have known ties to the Russian security services.

    There has been a surge in donations from prominent Russians to the Conservative party over the past year.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-blocked-report-naming-tory-donors-linked-to-kremlin-2019-11?
    r=US&IR=T

    nothing dodgy there for the tories... no not at all
    Finally the story is starting to gain some traction. Seems labour also passed off what was happening as nothing serious and opportunities rather than concerned that Russians were trying to attain citizenship and funnel money into parties, maybe explains why theyíve been quiet on this
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 13:24:03 20,043 posts
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    Thereís often a complete moratorium on donors as itís the subject that makes everyone look dodgy as fuck. They touch on it in The Thick of It as the can of worms you never open.
  • Technoishmatt 10 Nov 2019 13:29:39 4,272 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Technoishmatt wrote:
    Is it?
    In that he doesnít actually deny it happening.
    What does this mean?

    "I have been categorical in my denial about allegations relating to a coach trip some twenty months ago"
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 13:36:50 20,043 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Technoishmatt wrote:
    Is it?
    In that he doesnít actually deny it happening.
    What does this mean?

    "I have been categorical in my denial about allegations relating to a coach trip some twenty months ago"
    ď I have been categorical in my denial about allegations relating to a coach trip some twenty months ago.

    This was a coach full of journalists and MPs. If anyone genuinely believed any anti-semitic behaviour had taken place, they wouldíve had a moral responsibility to report it immediately. Yet this allegation is only made now when a General Election is imminent.

    I stand by my record as an anti racist campaigner. I would never be part of any behaviour that undermines my commitment to fighting racism in all its forms.Ē

    That potentially reads like it happened, but he doesnít consider what he did to be antisemitic. As opposed to it not happening at all and the whole incident being fabricated.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 13:40:06 20,043 posts
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    The comment from Cardenís spokesperson is similar:

    ďDaniel Carden has been a committed campaigner in support of LGBT rights and against all forms of racism and hatred, his entire political life. As a homosexual man he would never intentionally engage in homophobic, racist or antisemitic behaviour. Had there been genuine concerns as to Danielís behaviour then those concerns should have been raised at the time rather than some 20 months later on the eve of a general election.Ē
  • Frogofdoom 10 Nov 2019 13:42:38 16,587 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    What do you want me to say about them?

    (Snip)

    I just want the tories out.
    This is the best post you have made in the political threads, if you always posted like that you would get a lot less shit from people.
  • Frogofdoom 10 Nov 2019 13:47:02 16,587 posts
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    Hah, funnily enough I almost asked that but didnt want to seem snarky after a quality post.
  • disusedgenius 10 Nov 2019 13:47:41 10,545 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    That potentially reads like it happened.
    I honestly can't see how you could read it like that at all.
  • RichDC 10 Nov 2019 13:52:36 8,876 posts
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    He could just say "This is a completee fabrication and neither this nor anything remotely possible as being antisemitic or otherwise racist happened." Instead we have "No one at the time believed anything antisemitic happened" and "He would never be racist intentionally."
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 13:56:23 20,043 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    That potentially reads like it happened.
    I honestly can't see how you could read it like that at all.
    I mean he literally doesnít deny it happened. The spokesperson comment makes it sound even more like it happened with the use of the word ďintentionallyĒ.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 13:56:56 20,043 posts
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    RichDC wrote:
    He could just say "This is a completee fabrication and neither this nor anything remotely possible as being antisemitic or otherwise racist happened." Instead we have "No one at the time believed anything antisemitic happened" and "He would never be racist intentionally."
    Exactly.

    It might all just nitpicking and semantics but these seem carefully crafted.
  • pacrifice 10 Nov 2019 15:20:20 5,247 posts
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    "I have been categorical in my denial about allegations relating to a coach trip some twenty months ago.

    ...

    "

    That's the most relevant part I think. Is that not definitive?

    Edited by pacrifice at 15:21:30 10-11-2019
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 15:42:15 20,043 posts
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    Again, I donít think so.
  • TheSaint 10 Nov 2019 15:44:51 19,694 posts
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    I think you can read it as I'm denying it but if some video or other evidence somehow comes to light I've got some wriggle room.
  • disusedgenius 10 Nov 2019 16:04:49 10,545 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I mean he literally doesnít deny it happened.
    It's literally (and actually literally) the first part of the statement.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Nov 2019 16:09:24 20,043 posts
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    It isnít though. Seriously. Itís exactly like Saint says, thereís built in wiggle room. He doesnít say it didnít happen.

    This isnít me banging the antisemetism drum. Itís reading comprehension.
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