Following UK Politics Thread Page 499

  • You-can-call-me-kal 1 Dec 2019 21:04:13 19,703 posts
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    This was the best bit for those that missed it.

    https://twitter.com/fant1345/status/1201242268117671936?s=21
  • Dgzter 1 Dec 2019 21:05:53 3,209 posts
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    Chapeau to Price for dressing down Farage on Trump's language as well lol

    Zero fucks given about dropping the P-bomb.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 1 Dec 2019 21:10:29 19,703 posts
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    Burgon did score a nice point on Farage to be fair.
  • Psiloc 1 Dec 2019 21:12:12 5,486 posts
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    That's some shocking stuff kal. I've literally never seen any real life anti-semitism ever. Like never even a bad joke, or stereotypical comment or anything. Is it a regional thing? I see Islamophobia all the time
  • KRadiation 1 Dec 2019 21:19:35 1,523 posts
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    Only just caught the Andrew Marr interview. omg Its Big Brother and its terrifying that there are people out there that are too stupid or dense to see it.

    We are putting more police on the streets.
    * that you took off the streets

    we are building more hospitals
    *that you closed

    we are going to do this and that and unfreeze this to end poverty
    *all of which causes by cuts and closures your party did


    Were politics always such bullshit or was I just oblivious as a child in the 80s?
  • You-can-call-me-kal 1 Dec 2019 21:20:27 19,703 posts
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    Psiloc wrote:
    That's some shocking stuff kal. I've literally never seen any real life anti-semitism ever. Like never even a bad joke, or stereotypical comment or anything. Is it a regional thing? I see Islamophobia all the time
    Perhaps. Honestly (and I mean absolutely no disrespect) but Iíd suggest itís more likely that youíve never recognised any antisemitism as opposed to never seeing it. People donít goose step around brazenly hating Jews, but if you tune into the more subtle forms you notice it more and more.
  • KRadiation 1 Dec 2019 21:32:22 1,523 posts
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    Just read about the Nancy Astor statue stuff. I'm living in the fucking twilight zone. Nazis were "welcome solution to the world problem of jews"
    And yet its Labour that have the bad rep throughout this?

    Gane over. I'm done.
  • Graxlar_v3 1 Dec 2019 21:38:40 10,031 posts
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    KRadiation wrote:
    Just read about the Nancy Astor statue stuff. I'm living in the fucking twilight zone. Nazis were "welcome solution to the world problem of jews"
    And yet its Labour that have the bad rep throughout this?

    Gane over. I'm done.
    1+1=2 not 0.

    I donít think anyone here would argue against the torys being a party of racists. Itís more that Torys being racist does not absolve Labour for being racist.
  • Nazo 1 Dec 2019 21:42:39 1,327 posts
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    KRadiation wrote:
    Only just caught the Andrew Marr interview. omg Its Big Brother and its terrifying that there are people out there that are too stupid or dense to see it.

    We are putting more police on the streets.
    * that you took off the streets

    we are building more hospitals
    *that you closed

    we are going to do this and that and unfreeze this to end poverty
    *all of which causes by cuts and closures your party did


    Were politics always such bullshit or was I just oblivious as a child in the 80s?
    Matt Hancock was on BBC Breakfast the other day trying to explain how their commitment to 50000 more nurses in the NHS isn't the same as saying 50000 new nurses. It really is doublespeak bullshit.
  • Stuz359 1 Dec 2019 21:44:22 255 posts
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    That's generalisation surely? You're basically saying all tories are racists and all labour members are racists. It's patently untrue.
  • Graxlar_v3 1 Dec 2019 21:46:23 10,031 posts
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    @Nazo I said it at the time but I actually understand where they got the 50k from though.

    They are saying in 2024 they will have 50,000 more nurses than they do currently. This will be made up of 38k new nurses and 12k through reduction in nurses leaving or losing their status due to lack of training.

    They are just too stupid to explain it that way
  • Graxlar_v3 1 Dec 2019 21:46:47 10,031 posts
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    Stuz359 wrote:
    That's generalisation surely? You're basically saying all tories are racists and all labour members are racists. It's patently untrue.
    No I am saying both parties have a problem with racism.

    Ok, I was being a bit flippent with my wording but the meaning behind it stays the same.

    Edited by Graxlar_v3 at 21:47:51 01-12-2019
  • Frogofdoom 1 Dec 2019 21:47:22 16,417 posts
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    I think psiloc might have a point though, the Jewish population here is about 200 people out of 300000. Apart from a few areas most Jewish populations are fairly small and we wouldn't have the first clue if someone was or not. I think that might be where a few of us are a bit ignorant as it's just not something we can relate to. Around these parts the people that get the brunt of the racists time are Indian, Pakistani and eastern European.
  • Graxlar_v3 1 Dec 2019 21:49:51 10,031 posts
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    Frogofdoom wrote:
    I think psiloc might have a point though, the Jewish population here is about 200 people out of 300000. Apart from a few areas most Jewish populations are fairly small and we wouldn't have the first clue if someone was or not. I think that might be where a few of us are a bit ignorant as it's just not something we can relate to. Around these parts the people that get the brunt of the racists time are Indian, Pakistani and eastern European.
    That is why we need people like Kal and the numerous others who flag this as a problem. Just because we donít notice it in our bubbles doesnít mean it should be ignored.
  • disusedgenius 1 Dec 2019 21:57:55 10,502 posts
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    Most of the 'day-to-day' anti-semitism I've heard has come pretty out of the blue. Probably because there's often not much recognised interaction people can revert to some pretty shady stereotypes without really having them questioned.

    If anything it reminds me of racism of gypsies - just an assumed way people operate and behave.

    Edited by disusedgenius at 21:58:33 01-12-2019
  • Armoured_Bear 1 Dec 2019 22:05:12 28,818 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    This was the best bit for those that missed it.

    https://twitter.com/fant1345/status/1201242268117671936?s=21
    He was so bad, they really couldnít send anyone better?
    The Tory needed punching.

    As usual, Sturgeon, way more convincing than anyone else.
  • DakeyrasUK 1 Dec 2019 22:19:02 4,152 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Generally I really try and be patient. Sometimes I struggle.

    For everyone else this just a discussion but this isnít academic for me. I had to stop going to PLP meetings because they just became unbearable. Iíve had close friends sharing antisemitic memes on FB that I donít speak to anymore. Iíve had people in my workplace (where I havenít even had the guts to Ďcome outí out as Jewish) tell me how Jews hate Corbyn because they donít want to pay more tax. My sonís nursery needs armed security ffs.

    Thatís not intended as a sob story, Iím just just trying to explain that this isnít like every other thread for me. I donít have the privilege of behaving like this is just a debate and indulge provocative and devilís advocate type positions like other threads, because this is deeply deeply personal.

    I know most people here are cool, but there are a few who have put across some quite sinister views, and others who skate around them. And when that happens, not many people say anything. Even most who acknowledge the problem are still going to vote Labour to keep the Tories out, which I kinda get, but again, it doesnít exactly make me feel like people have my back.

    So yeah, sorry but not really sorry. I know I get super cunty in here but it seems a bit much to have to put up with all this bullshit with a patient smile.
    Wow, sorry this happening to you.

    Do you think the problem is Corbyn or his lack of leadership? Is their something truly deep rooted within the powers of the Labour Party?

    I like what Corbyn says, he seems like he hates the immature nature of the HoC and that is something I can really get behind. But if there is something insidious there I'd rather be educated about before going to the polls.

    Not that me voting labour or not will make any difference, but would not want to look back in regret for voting for them.

    Can I ask kal, how you used to vote and who you intend on voting for next week?
  • Carlo 1 Dec 2019 22:27:06 21,272 posts
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    I don't vote labour, and I hadn't really followed this "labour party is anti-semetic" story, but I find it so hard to believe the Labour Party is in itself anti-semetic.

    Is the Jewish community saying the Labour party is institutionally against Jewish people, or there's just a few anti-jewish people in the party and they're not doing enough to address it?

    Edited by Carlo at 22:27:44 01-12-2019
  • Frogofdoom 1 Dec 2019 22:27:38 16,417 posts
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    Kal used to be a labour party member. I cant remember if he said he was going to vote for Luciana Berger or not though when she announced she was running in his constituency.
  • DakeyrasUK 1 Dec 2019 22:38:48 4,152 posts
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    Frogofdoom wrote:
    Kal used to be a labour party member. I cant remember if he said he was going to vote for Luciana Berger or not though when she announced she was running in his constituency.
    Just read up on the constituency, seems like a vote for lib dem there is kinda letting the tory's win... Gotta be tough living there and having a real problem with the Labour Party!

    Curious that a current MP would stand in such a different constituency that she is likely to lose and be returning to the HoC... Fair play to her I guess, clearly not a career politician.
  • Nazo 1 Dec 2019 22:44:34 1,327 posts
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    Graxlar_v3 wrote:
    @Nazo I said it at the time but I actually understand where they got the 50k from though.

    They are saying in 2024 they will have 50,000 more nurses than they do currently. This will be made up of 38k new nurses and 12k through reduction in nurses leaving or losing their status due to lack of training.

    They are just too stupid to explain it that way
    Yeah, I understand it but I still think it's BS. They aren't saying there will be 50000 more nurses than now, they're saying there will be more nurses than there would otherwise have been. It's not the same, and it's dishonest.
  • DakeyrasUK 1 Dec 2019 23:00:32 4,152 posts
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    Yeah they are saying 50,000 more than our current projections of doing nothing will be in 10 years time of which 31,000 will be new nurses.
  • disusedgenius 1 Dec 2019 23:01:56 10,502 posts
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    DakeyrasUK wrote:
    Curious that a current MP would stand in such a different constituency that she is likely to lose and be returning to the HoC... Fair play to her I guess, clearly not a career politician.
    It's a Remain and traditionally Jewish area of London, currently Labour are polling third there.
  • KRadiation 1 Dec 2019 23:33:21 1,523 posts
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    Graxlar_v3 wrote:
    KRadiation wrote:
    Just read about the Nancy Astor statue stuff. I'm living in the fucking twilight zone. Nazis were "welcome solution to the world problem of jews"
    And yet its Labour that have the bad rep throughout this?

    Gane over. I'm done.
    1+1=2 not 0.

    I donít think anyone here would argue against the torys being a party of racists. Itís more that Torys being racist does not absolve Labour for being racist.
    sorry my point wasnt that it absolved anyone. just double standards almost.
  • Lukus 2 Dec 2019 01:28:40 23,214 posts
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    I've really never understood antisemitism. I mean, I'm not a fan of racism in general, ha, but antisemitism in the modern age (and I know this has also been the case historically as well), ignoring all the REALLY far right stuff, seems to be massively tied up in conspiracy theory mindsets. Most racism, as far as I can tell, tends to stem from fear. Fear of different cultures, different perceptions and beliefs, different ways of doing things, different appearances, etc., etc. But antisemitism also seems to stem from these crazy conspiracy theories about Jews running the world and controlling all the wealth and so on.
    I think they've changed their algorithms to hide this kind of thing now, but a few years ago, pretty much every comments section on any YouTube video would eventually end up with some bullshit anti Jewish spiel from some moron who'd invested their entire outlook in one of those conspiracy theories. It was mega depressing for me as a Catholic-raised atheist. I can't imagine how shitty it would be as a Jewish person to constantly encounter that kind of crap. I would not be surprised in the slightest if there was a higher proportion of anti-Semites amongst the flat earth community...

    Anyway, in case none of this makes any sense, it's 1:30 in the morning and I really should be asleep. :I

    Edited by Lukus at 01:34:30 02-12-2019
  • Deleted user 2 December 2019 02:27:21
    Corbyns failure to deal with anti-Semitism among Labour Party members was the first red flag in terms of changing my mind about voting for him, as in he's not the man I thought he was.

    His supporters will often point out how he has voted in the HoC on various issues, compared to the leaders of the other parties, and he does usually or always vote on the right side of history as it were. But I have decided that I think it's like if asked he will say he's not racist and the Labour Party is definitely not the racist one of the parties, but when it comes to disciplining his own and risking upsetting his supporter base, he won't do
    it.

    I also watched the BBC documentary on anti-Semitism in Corbyns Labour Party, and even allowing for the anti-Corbyn bias of the BBC (which I do believe exists), if even half of the testimonials and evidence is true, then I'm not voting for Corbyn or the current iteration of the Labour Party, simple as that.

    Then there's the Labour election manifesto, which is absolutely pie in the sky nationalise everything, spend, borrow and tax like crazy, with just 4 pages at the back dedicated to Brexit (and their Brexit plan is ludicrous and wishy-washy, as is Corbyns own stance) in what is almost a single issue election.

    Then finally there was the Andrew Neil interview, where he was literally torn apart, and Neil did give him plenty of opportunities to answer questions put to him. I thought in particular, the lack of apology for the many, proven, documented and serious anti-Semitic incidents in the Labour Party on his watch was appalling, and especially lacking in political PR judgment, in light of the other refusal to apologize in the news recently (Prince Andrew).

    TLdr: fuck Corbyn, wasteman.
  • Armoured_Bear 2 Dec 2019 05:58:38 28,818 posts
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    ďTax like crazyĒ is utter Sun written nonsense.
  • Armoured_Bear 2 Dec 2019 06:02:58 28,818 posts
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    ďSpend like crazyĒ to insane levels, less than Germany or France.
    Thatís mental, better stick with the Tories as they dismantle public services, the NHS and happily kill societyís most needy.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 2 Dec 2019 07:11:25 19,703 posts
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    DakeyrasUK wrote:

    Do you think the problem is Corbyn or his lack of leadership? Is their something truly deep rooted within the powers of the Labour Party?

    I like what Corbyn says, he seems like he hates the immature nature of the HoC and that is something I can really get behind. But if there is something insidious there I'd rather be educated about before going to the polls.

    Not that me voting labour or not will make any difference, but would not want to look back in regret for voting for them.

    Can I ask kal, how you used to vote and who you intend on voting for next week?
    This is a pretty exhaustive list of all the evidence against Corbyn.

    https://twitter.com/gileadini/status/1169283115266859008?s=21

    I think a lot here is up for debate and much of it will make certain people go ĎBUT ISRAELí but I think at the very least if you view these events through the lens of what Jews are experiencing in this country right now, itíll give you a sense of the concern.

    This just specifically relates to Corbyn himself. It doesnít really show the other wider stuff in the party that he hasnít clamped down on, which is the bigger issue. On that topic this yougov survey that shows that left wing antisemitism is now more prevalent than right wing is interesting.

    https://antisemitism.uk/caa-and-kcl-study-finds-far-left-jew-hatred-has-now-overtaken-far-right-in-britain-and-two-thirds-of-corbyns-vanguard-of-strongest-supporters-hold-antisemitic-views/
  • Sharz 2 Dec 2019 07:22:27 1,951 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    ďSpend like crazyĒ to insane levels, less than Germany or France.
    Thatís mental, better stick with the Tories as they dismantle public services, the NHS and happily kill societyís most needy.
    According to the other half parents Labour are to dangerous as they won't get us from Europe. The reason (and I kid you not) is that the EU force us to give all our food to other countries. We had better British food 'years ago' now its all crap because of thr EU.

    She pointed out to them about US trade deals and the NHS but nothing cut though, because you cannot trust Labour.
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