UK Politics Thread Page 634

  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 10:03:40 1,075 posts
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    Her policies. Dead set against public ownership.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 10:04:41 18,986 posts
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    No, she’s just said Corbyn’s approach to nationalism was unrealistic. She’s not dead set against it at all.

    What else?
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 10:09:05 1,075 posts
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    Would you accept she's the furthest right of the candidates?
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 10:14:04 18,986 posts
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    I think that question is indicative of the factionist bullshit that has completely destroyed the integrity and and credibility of the party, but if I must, I would accept she’s the least far left of the candidates. I don’t consider any of the candidates to be on the right. That’s why they’re trying to be Labour leader.

    So back to these policies you don’t like then? Any more?
  • TechnoHippy 14 Feb 2020 10:15:17 16,021 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Nandy was by far and away the best at the JLM hustings. She’s far more credible as a leader than I originally thought. Such a clear and powerful communicator. I really am leaning towards her over Starmer at the moment.

    This speech is world class.

    https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1228228363568865281?s=21
    The bitterness and denial is strong in that thread.
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 10:48:54 1,075 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    I think that question is indicative of the factionist bullshit that has completely destroyed the integrity and and credibility of the party, but if I must, I would accept she’s the least far left of the candidates. I don’t consider any of the candidates to be on the right. That’s why they’re trying to be Labour leader.

    So back to these policies you don’t like then? Any more?
    In favour of tuition fees.
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 10:49:44 1,075 posts
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    And her nodding dog tour was dreadful.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 10:55:37 18,986 posts
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    No. The two main parts of Corbyn’s election manifesto Nandy pledged to maintain were abolition of tuition fees and renationalisation of Royal Mail.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 10:59:54 18,986 posts
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    A quick Twitter search of ‘Nandy nodding dog’ quickly shows the kind of people you get your terrible and poorly informed takes from.

    I really do wonder when the penny is going to drop for you.
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 11:03:02 1,075 posts
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    Thanks for the definitive opinions.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 11:04:40 18,986 posts
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    At least I have opinions.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 11:08:21 18,986 posts
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    It’s not opinion btw. I’m literally representing what she actually said. It’s a fact.

    You’re representing lies you’ve read on Twitter.
  • JamboWayOh 14 Feb 2020 11:19:28 17,133 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    Thanks for the definitive opinions.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-51124716/labour-leadership-lisa-nandy-on-student-fees-the-nhs-trident-and-tax

    Here you go Higgy, some 'opinions'.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 11:27:35 18,986 posts
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    Clip demonstrates exactly what I like about her. You really get a sense that she’s actually got answers instead of rehearsed responses. She makes a lot of sense.

    I don’t think she’s negative at all. She’s earnest which is no bad thing. She’s shat all over Corbynism which I’m sure some take as negativity but it’s tough love that the party needs. And the dewy eyed luxury socialist utopia positivity thing is just an extension of what the electorate hate about Corbynism.
  • Armoured_Bear 14 Feb 2020 11:37:14 28,163 posts
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    @its-H1ggyLTD
    Higgy, do you accept that the UK electorate has clearly rejected Corbynism?
    Do you not think that Corbynism with a different face is unlikely to be much different?

    With the worst government in living memory, managing to lose areas that have voted Labour for generations requires proper alienation of Labour voters which is what Corbyn achieved, it doesn't matter how many of your party comrades love it.

    What use is sticking to your hardcore Corbynism guns when it has zero chance of getting into power and subsequently enabling Tory destruction of the country?
    Labour desperately need a leader who appeals to all those lose voters as well as the least cunty Tory voters, I don't understand how that's not obvious.

    Edited by Armoured_Bear at 11:37:32 14-02-2020
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 12:20:06 18,986 posts
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    JLM has nominated Nandy for leader.

    She’s chair of Labour Friends of Palestine, so there’s something quite lovely about that.

    Edited by You-can-call-me-kal at 12:21:46 14-02-2020
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 12:26:16 1,075 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    @its-H1ggyLTD
    Higgy, do you accept that the UK electorate has clearly rejected Corbynism?
    Do you not think that Corbynism with a different face is unlikely to be much different?.
    Yes.

    And immediately following the election I was in this thread basically saying Starmer it is, then.

    I like the way the guy presents himself. As much as I worry it's a bit of a smokescreen, he seems genuine. And also presenting some lefty policies (which I see is turning some of the sensible moderate commeteriat against him).


    But ultimately I don't want some change. I want total change. It's the only way we'll see a much fairer society.


    I'm not pragmatic enough to make do. I want to stand by what I believe in (from twitter).


    So I'll vote that way. And if I don't get the candidate I want I'll still vote Labour.


    The country might not be ready for it as you say, but how will we ever get them ready for it if we give up on it?

    That's the thing with the nodding dog tour - she's talking to people on doorsteps chatting nonsense and nodding along like we need to represent these people better.

    There was the thing yesterday about trans rights not being important to voters.

    I don't want us to better represent these voters - I want us to help them understand why they're wrong.

    Edited by its-H1ggyLTD at 12:26:55 14-02-2020
  • JamboWayOh 14 Feb 2020 12:33:43 17,133 posts
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    You don't give up on change but you can't go from 0 to 60 and tell anyone left behind to fuck off. These things are a gradual thing, no? As long as we get there isn't that a good thing or do we just label everyone a Tory because they don't agree you can go from capitalist economy to socialist utopia overnight?
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 12:35:17 1,075 posts
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    Which is why I'll vote Labour.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 12:36:04 18,986 posts
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    They all have lefty policies. The two right wing policies you just cited Nandy as having are false.

    What do you mean by “total change”. Be specific.

    Marxist? Keynesian? Trotsyism? Maoism? Anarchism? Totalitarianism?

    If your politics are so radical why are you even bothering with the Labour Party? Why aren’t you in the SWP or the Workers Party of Britain?

    Edited by You-can-call-me-kal at 12:38:24 14-02-2020
  • Armoured_Bear 14 Feb 2020 12:37:22 28,163 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:

    I don't want us to better represent these voters - I want us to help them understand why they're wrong.
    They may not always be wrong and how much damage will be done till you manage to convince them of the error of their ways?
    The longer this Tory government is in place, the more checks and balances and accountability will disappear and the less power parliament and the opposition will have.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 12:43:26 18,986 posts
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    And also, given how every example ever of radical far left socialist government has been a complete disaster for societal equality and happiness, why are you so convinced that everyone who thinks a more moderate system like all the happiest and socially fair countries in the world have, are “wrong”.
  • Graxlar_v3 14 Feb 2020 12:43:36 9,066 posts
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    It’s completely pointless anyway, the only way a labour government gets in is if it gives Scotland a referendum.

    Which will then fuck it completely going forward.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 14 Feb 2020 12:44:22 7,712 posts
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    Spent the last 48 hours down with a nasty dose of food poisoning (blaming a dodgy burrito from a stall near work), so not been up to posting anything heavy-duty. But now I'm recovered... thoughts on the reshuffle.

    Obviously barely worth talking about anything but the Chancellor situation. From what I can tell, Boris genuinely wasn't expecting Sajid to walk. In fact, over the weekend, the rumour mill had Cummings on his way out from No.10, having failed to get his way on HS2, the reshuffle or the restructuring of Whitehall. As it is, he's managed to get one out of three (and it does look like he engineered yesterday's situation). Question is whether he's pissed Boris off in doing so. Cummings is a genius in some circumstances, but is known for being hard/impossible to work with in the long-run, so I've never expected his tenure at Downing Street to be a long one. Remember that his spiritual predecessor, Steve Hilton, didn't even last a full two years once the Tories were actually in power.

    That said, yesterday's largely being read as a move to curb the power of Treasury. There are arguments for and against such a move. The biggest argument against is that it is Treasury's legitimate role to be the voice of caution within Government and that it has constrained previous bouts of Prime Ministerial excitability (don't forget, Treasury kept us out of the Euro). The opposing argument is that Treasury has become too powerful over the last couple of decades. Brown couldn't wait to be Prime Minister, so he built Treasury into a machine with even greater power than No.10. That machine now sits at the centre of government, largely indifferent to Prime Ministerial desires, and is full of over-mighty SpAds and officials who frequently over-rule more knowledgeable counterparts from spending departments on the basis of whims. A lot of people in Whitehall would celebrate the humbling of Treasury.

    Of course, don't expect Treasury to have its wings clipped easily. It has survived more thought-through attacks on its dominance before. Contrary to reputation, its staff aren't Whitehall's best and brightest (they just think they are), but they are very good at political survival. Expect them to batten down the hatches and try to ride-out what they expect to be a short-term squall.

    But No.10 may also be glad to see Javid gone for another reason. In most ministerial posts, you can get away with being a bit stupid. The Civil Service machine will cover for all but the most outstanding of incompetence. Only with the real hardcore thickos like John Prescott or David Davis does it generally manage to shine through. But Chancellor and CST do actually need to be clever, or else things can go badly wrong. The last three Chancellors (Darling, Osborne, Hammond) have, whatever their other flaws, been clever. But there were pretty loud rumblings that Javid just wasn't smart enough for the job. Sunak has a reputation for being much sharper.

    Beyond that, very little really counted for much in the reshuffle. Rees-Mogg staying in post implies Boris doesn't think he can discard the ERG wing of the party just yet. He's generally promoted loyalists, but discarded attention-seeking social media tarts. Interestingly, loyalists who were also attention-seeking social media tarts have not fared well. I'm told (though haven't checked) that there is a significant drop-off in the proportion of the Cabinet that's on twitter.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 14 Feb 2020 12:46:08 7,712 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    I don't want us to better represent these voters - I want us to help them understand why they're wrong.
    And that's the attitude that will keep Labour out of power. The clear message that's coming through from historic Labour voters who defected is that they felt the party patronised them. They don't want to be "educated" by you. Some of them rather feel you should be educated by them.
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 12:50:15 1,075 posts
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    If they don't care about trans rights then they are wrong, and need educating.

    If that means they vote tory because they don't want to he better people then so be it.

    We don't just give up.
  • challenge_hanukkah 14 Feb 2020 12:52:53 12,022 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    JLM has nominated Nandy for leader.

    She’s chair of Labour Friends of Palestine, so there’s something quite lovely about that.
    That's genuinely quite uplifting.
  • JamboWayOh 14 Feb 2020 13:01:50 17,133 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:

    If that means they vote tory because they don't want to he better people then so be it.
    And this is the type of language that doesn't help.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 13:01:52 18,986 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    If they don't care about trans rights then they are wrong, and need educating.
    Completely agree on this but trans rights isn’t a exclusive policy of the radical hard left. Nandy has also signed the LCTR pledge along with Long-Bailey.

    I also find it interesting how the latter part of your post - if they vote Tory so be it- is different to the ‘greater good’ rhetoric that you were using to excuse antisemitism not long ago.

    Edited by You-can-call-me-kal at 13:02:49 14-02-2020
  • Technoishmatt 14 Feb 2020 13:27:55 3,832 posts
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    @Rogueywon lot to disagree with there :) although Treasury has more than most perhaps suffered from the long pay freezes.

    Although I agree that Sunak is bright. He absorbs advice and does background reading. Question is whether you have time for that as CX over eg Chief Sec. But although Javid seemed to be portrayed as the man always saying no, it was actually Sunak saying no to everybody during last year's Spending Round.

    But weirdly in some ways this could actually increase Treasury levers over WH, at expense of Cabinet Office.

    I am mostly dismayed / disappointed by the continued short term / announcement hunting approach being taken at No 10. They talk of evidence and evaluation etc but are quick to rush to solutions, which will only lead to continued failure to have an impact. They need departments headed by their politicians to be bought into the process, not just told what to do, based on the flimsiest of manifestos. Budgets are tight, and there is no space to waste. You've got half a million kids in some kind of social care situation for christ's sake. Thousands of homeless.
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