UK Politics Thread Page 635

  • TheSaint 14 Feb 2020 13:36:47 19,148 posts
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    JamboWayOh wrote:
    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:

    If that means they vote tory because they don't want to he better people then so be it.
    And this is the type of language that doesn't help.
    Pretty true though.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 14 Feb 2020 13:37:19 7,712 posts
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    @Technoishmatt My Whitehall sources do tell me that Treasury pay is well below average - though gather this has been a long-run thing going back a couple of decades? That said, they also tell me that Treasury is generally full of people with more ambition than brains, who see a stint in Treasury as "CV material" and want to do a stint there, knowing that they'll be judged by simple virtue of that stint, regardless of whether they were any good.

    I only deal with Treasury on rare occasions myself, compared to the wider Civil Service. I've been struck a couple of times by the fact that some of them are shockingly innumerate. And that nobody ever seems to stay in post more than 18 months.

    Agree the focus on announcement hunting isn't good - hoping it's just part of a short term "we're a new government" push and settles down soon. Some of the stuff on bridges has been mental.Surprised everybody's talking about the engineering problems with an Ireland/Scotland bridge, when the business case falls down on the simple basis that no fucker would actually use it.

    Edited by Rogueywon at 13:37:42 14-02-2020
  • JamboWayOh 14 Feb 2020 13:41:42 17,133 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:

    If that means they vote tory because they don't want to he better people then so be it.
    And this is the type of language that doesn't help.
    Pretty true though.
    Perhaps but it's been often used as a way of saying if you don't agree with us on xyz then go vote Tory.
  • TheSaint 14 Feb 2020 13:44:16 19,148 posts
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    Some people are just ignorant and drawn to simple populist ideologies offered by the like of the Tories.

    The print media reinforcing these views obviously doesn't help. People just want simple answers to complex questions.
  • TheSaint 14 Feb 2020 13:46:43 19,148 posts
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    I'd be interested to know how accepting these areas are of things like gay marriage which has felt like a settled argument for some time in large parts of the country.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 13:47:19 18,986 posts
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    I don’t think it’s that hard to understand why people from the soft left would favour the soft right over the hard left. Extremism and absolutism of any flavour is scary to moderates.
  • JamboWayOh 14 Feb 2020 13:49:22 17,133 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    I'd be interested to know how accepting these areas are of things like gay marriage which has felt like a settled argument for some time in large parts of the country.
    I imagine some people still think it's a slippery slope to marrying your mother or your dog and so God has punished us with flooding.
  • TheSaint 14 Feb 2020 14:03:21 19,148 posts
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    That footage of the cabinet calling out the numbers (many of which were proven to be false multiple times during the campaign) is one of the most embarrassing things I've seen for a while.
  • TheSaint 14 Feb 2020 14:05:56 19,148 posts
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    In case you haven't seen it:

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1228263906277253121?s=20
  • askew 14 Feb 2020 14:11:33 20,672 posts
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    I'm surprised they don't hold a round of prayers and praise Johnson/Cummings for the great honour of letting them sit near him.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 14:12:36 18,986 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    In case you haven't seen it:

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1228263906277253121?s=20
    🤢
  • JamboWayOh 14 Feb 2020 14:15:06 17,133 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    In case you haven't seen it:

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1228263906277253121?s=20
    That's literally a carbon copy of Trump when they televise his meetings. Dreadful.
  • Graxlar_v3 14 Feb 2020 14:29:19 9,066 posts
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    JamboWayOh wrote:
    TheSaint wrote:
    In case you haven't seen it:

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1228263906277253121?s=20
    That's literally a carbon copy of Trump when they televise his meetings. Dreadful.
    I wouldn't say that Trump has the entire cabinet praise him one by one.

    This is just as disgusting though.
  • JamboWayOh 14 Feb 2020 14:30:40 17,133 posts
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    Graxlar_v3 wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    TheSaint wrote:
    In case you haven't seen it:

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1228263906277253121?s=20
    That's literally a carbon copy of Trump when they televise his meetings. Dreadful.
    I wouldn't say that Trump has the entire cabinet praise him one by one.

    This is just as disgusting though.
    I think he has mate.
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 15:35:38 1,075 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    And also, given how every example ever of radical far left socialist government has been a complete disaster for societal equality and happiness, why are you so convinced that everyone who thinks a more moderate system like all the happiest and socially fair countries in the world have, are “wrong”.
    Capitalism is a disaster for humanity.
  • Graxlar_v3 14 Feb 2020 15:36:35 9,066 posts
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    JamboWayOh wrote:
    Graxlar_v3 wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    TheSaint wrote:
    In case you haven't seen it:

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1228263906277253121?s=20
    That's literally a carbon copy of Trump when they televise his meetings. Dreadful.
    I wouldn't say that Trump has the entire cabinet praise him one by one.

    This is just as disgusting though.
    I think he has mate.
    Both massive cunts who are doing more harm to democracy than i ever thought possible.
  • Graxlar_v3 14 Feb 2020 15:42:25 9,066 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    And also, given how every example ever of radical far left socialist government has been a complete disaster for societal equality and happiness, why are you so convinced that everyone who thinks a more moderate system like all the happiest and socially fair countries in the world have, are “wrong”.
    Capitalism is a disaster for humanity.
    Captialism has given humanity alot, most of our current technological advances have been a result of people wanting more. Don't get me wrong, it is currently very broken and someone needs to see how it can be made fairer but capitalism has driven advances in culture and technology for millennia.

    Couple that with the human condition being one of massive selfishness, I can't see socialism ever being anything but a pipe dream.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 15:57:01 18,986 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    And also, given how every example ever of radical far left socialist government has been a complete disaster for societal equality and happiness, why are you so convinced that everyone who thinks a more moderate system like all the happiest and socially fair countries in the world have, are “wrong”.
    Capitalism is a disaster for humanity.
    Again, student politics.

    The overall improvements in quality of life that have only come because of a free market are immeasurable. Health care, widely available affordable and safe food, varied and fulfilling employment, arts and culture, democracy, human rights. The list is endless.

    It is of course flawed (everything is outside the dreams of utopian fantasists) and it has massively stagnated. Progressive countries such as Denmark have shown the way in evolving it to be fairer. But it’s still capitalism.

    It’s funny how the most outspoken people on how awful capitalism is are those living comfortably as part of it.
  • IRWATWO 14 Feb 2020 15:57:35 482 posts
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    Graxlar_v3 wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    Graxlar_v3 wrote:
    JamboWayOh wrote:
    TheSaint wrote:
    In case you haven't seen it:

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1228263906277253121?s=20
    That's literally a carbon copy of Trump when they televise his meetings. Dreadful.
    I wouldn't say that Trump has the entire cabinet praise him one by one.

    This is just as disgusting though.
    I think he has mate.
    Both massive cunts who are doing more harm to democracy than i ever thought possible.
    Both attacking the judiciary, both also attacking and marginalising the press that disagree with them. As you say, a danger to democracy we haven't seen in a long time, but both ultimately both reflecting the view of the fucking, fucking cunts that vote for them. We deserve them.
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 14 Feb 2020 16:02:08 7,712 posts
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    @You-can-call-me-kal Glad you said that, because if I'd said it, that would have been Higgy off into free-verse poetry mode again. :)
  • Graxlar_v3 14 Feb 2020 16:04:03 9,066 posts
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    Rogueywon wrote:
    @You-can-call-me-kal Glad you said that, because if I'd said it, that would have been Higgy off into free-verse poetry mode again. :)
    "cough"
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 16:09:58 1,075 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    And also, given how every example ever of radical far left socialist government has been a complete disaster for societal equality and happiness, why are you so convinced that everyone who thinks a more moderate system like all the happiest and socially fair countries in the world have, are “wrong”.
    Capitalism is a disaster for humanity.
    Again, student politics.

    The overall improvements in quality of life that have only come because of a free market are immeasurable. Health care, widely available affordable and safe food, varied and fulfilling employment, arts and culture, democracy, human rights. The list is endless.

    It is of course flawed (everything is outside the dreams of utopian fantasists) and it has massively stagnated. Progressive countries such as Denmark have shown the way in evolving it to be fairer. But it’s still capitalism.

    It’s funny how the most outspoken people on how awful capitalism is are those living comfortably as part of it.
    I'll look forward to the health care provided by the free market when the sea swallows my life.
  • AcidSnake 14 Feb 2020 16:48:02 8,234 posts
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    I don't know if this has been asked before, but how old are you Higgy?

    Not meant as a put down, really. It's just your vehement defence of some extreme left views feels very much like someone who just read the theory and hasn't been worn down by years of reality and pragmatism...

    FWIW I had that phase too years ago when I first started to understand politics a bit better...And although the ideals are still something I hold I have come to accept that the system won't allow, nor could it handle any radical swings to extreme socialism...
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 16:52:03 1,075 posts
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    I'm middle aged.

    I get less pragmatic as I get older and realise the world is a mess.
  • Armoured_Bear 14 Feb 2020 16:58:11 28,163 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    And also, given how every example ever of radical far left socialist government has been a complete disaster for societal equality and happiness, why are you so convinced that everyone who thinks a more moderate system like all the happiest and socially fair countries in the world have, are “wrong”.
    Capitalism is a disaster for humanity.
    Again, student politics.

    The overall improvements in quality of life that have only come because of a free market are immeasurable. Health care, widely available affordable and safe food, varied and fulfilling employment, arts and culture, democracy, human rights. The list is endless.

    It is of course flawed (everything is outside the dreams of utopian fantasists) and it has massively stagnated. Progressive countries such as Denmark have shown the way in evolving it to be fairer. But it’s still capitalism.

    It’s funny how the most outspoken people on how awful capitalism is are those living comfortably as part of it.

    I'll look forward to the health care provided by the free market when the sea swallows my life.
    The Tory government you helped into power will help destroy health care. Better that than a moderate Labour government protecting it, eh?
    We don’t want centrist melts in power improving things, we want hardcore proper revolutionaries who can’t do anything but watch and bitch.

    Capitalism, neoliberalism does cause a lot of worldwide damage and isn’t sustainable but how can you not be realistic and, as Kalel mentioned , look at the Scandinavian countries and think “that would be a massive improvement and is possible under Labour?”
  • mothercruncher 14 Feb 2020 17:05:14 17,081 posts
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    Indeed- because Momentum have literally just condemned numerous marginalised and disenfranchised groups to even of the more brutal end of capitalism under these twats, and you even seem to be proposing to do so again and again in the future all because you can’t put pragmatism ahead of immature ideological puritanism.

    So, you know, keep fucking over those you pretend to care about in order to grasp that precious identity, comrade.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 14 Feb 2020 18:03:10 12,202 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    I'm middle aged.

    I get less pragmatic as I get older and realise the world is a mess.
    I get that you might be angry at the state of the world but that you’re so furiously committed to a choice that ensures it won’t change just so you can stick it to people you don’t like from your own party is really weird
  • its-H1ggyLTD 14 Feb 2020 18:18:44 1,075 posts
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    I'm not trying to stick it to anyone.

    If they win I'll vote for them.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 14 Feb 2020 19:51:13 18,986 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    I'll look forward to the health care provided by the free market when the sea swallows my life.
    That was a pretty sharp u-turn from social equality to environmentalism. But again, just so simplistic. Yes, capitalism (probably more consumerism) has been the cause of enormous damage to the environment.

    But so has industrialisation in communist/socialist countries. In fact China and Russia are right up there in terms of footprint.

    And yes, a free market is far more likely to solve these problems because of the nature of competitive industry. Just look at the way the auto industry has pivoted to electric because of the market disruption Tesla have caused.

    Wanting a better world is great. Good for you. Utter naivety in believing absolute socialism will somehow magically cause that without any understating of how is not.

    Edited by You-can-call-me-kal at 19:51:40 14-02-2020
  • HarryPalmer 14 Feb 2020 19:56:40 6,052 posts
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    Amen.
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