UK Politics Thread Page 109

  • disusedgenius 10 May 2019 20:10:01 9,930 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Which is reasonable, but how else can someone communicate that they are against Zionism? I mean, itís a phrase that communicates a belief.
    Welcome to the dilemma of people who grew up in the 70s who had to learn that coloured was now an unacceptable term, even though to them it just communicated the colour of someone's skin.

    But the basic answer is that the term 'Zionism' doesn't inherently communicate the concept you seem to referring to. Are you referring to the religious belief? Do you want to see Israel wiped off the map? Do you want the country to be dissolved and its nationals sent... somewhere else? Do you object to a state which identifies with a religion? Do you object to its treatment of Gaza? Its relationship with the US? The fact that it's a nuclear power? Do you object to a two party solution? Or do you think that this is all a ploy for the Jews to control the world?

    Maybe just pick one or two of those.
  • AaronTurner 10 May 2019 20:13:08 11,057 posts
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    JamboWayOh wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    Iím just saying this because I donít actually think what the Labour guy said is anti-Semitic. I think it was clumsy for sure, and there are a lot of better ways to go about it, but in black and white I donít see it as anti-semetic.
    I don't know what to say, go ask some Jewish people what their opinion is on the matter.
    Well I suppose what you do is explain why it is anti-Semitic?
  • Sir_Stefansen 10 May 2019 20:15:36 501 posts
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    Cribbio, how much ignorance!
    What if I tell you that the first anti-Zionists are the Jews themselves? (obviously a part of them).
    I bet that 90% of the world population if you talk to them about Zionists will paint the stereotype of the ultra-orthodox Jew, not knowing that, at least in theory, is actually the first of the anti-Zionists
  • Frogofdoom 10 May 2019 20:25:44 13,655 posts
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    This will end well.
  • AaronTurner 10 May 2019 20:33:20 11,057 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    Which is reasonable, but how else can someone communicate that they are against Zionism? I mean, itís a phrase that communicates a belief.
    Welcome to the dilemma of people who grew up in the 70s who had to learn that coloured was now an unacceptable term, even though to them it just communicated the colour of someone's skin.

    But the basic answer is that the term 'Zionism' doesn't inherently communicate the concept you seem to referring to. Are you referring to the religious belief? Do you want to see Israel wiped off the map? Do you want the country to be dissolved and its nationals sent... somewhere else? Do you object to a state which identifies with a religion? Do you object to its treatment of Gaza? Its relationship with the US? The fact that it's a nuclear power? Do you object to a two party solution? Or do you think that this is all a ploy for the Jews to control the world?

    Maybe just pick one or two of those.
    I hear what youíre saying, but also just because someone is anti-Zionist doesnít mean that they want the nuclear option for everything. At its most basic, fundamental level itís a belief that there was no fundamental right to create Israel as a homeland for Jewish people, which to me isnít anti-Semitic. I appreciate that there are more nuanced arguements that come from that, Iím practical enough to understand that Israel is already there and a solution requires that the Jewish people of Israel are taken care of as well as Palestinians. At the heart of it though, I donít see the anti-semetism.
  • disusedgenius 10 May 2019 20:38:15 9,930 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    I hear what youíre saying, but also just because someone is anti-Zionist doesnít mean that they want the nuclear option for everything.
    That isn't even close to what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you use the term Zionism no one can tell whether you're a cunt or not. Once a term crosses that line it's no longer a term that's worth using to communicate your ideas.
  • Graxlar_v3 10 May 2019 20:46:48 7,253 posts
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    Frogofdoom wrote:
    This will end well.
    Thankfully everyone ignored him
  • AaronTurner 10 May 2019 20:48:07 11,057 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    I hear what youíre saying, but also just because someone is anti-Zionist doesnít mean that they want the nuclear option for everything.
    That isn't even close to what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you use the term Zionism no one can tell whether you're a cunt or not. Once a term crosses that line it's no longer a term that's worth using to communicate your ideas.
    I think it is close to what youíre saying and I think we both fundamentally agree why anti-Zionism can be conflated with anti-semetism. The only difference as far as I see it is that people hear the term anti-Zionism and consider all the negative connotations rather than anything else that the term may mean. By the way, Iím fine with that, however it doesnít explain to me why the Labour MP is being called anti-Semitic for what he said.

    Edited by AaronTurner at 20:48:47 10-05-2019
  • X201 10 May 2019 21:33:00 19,279 posts
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    Hat-trick have dropped a bollock with this week's Have I Got News For You.

    Booked Heidi Allen as a guest, broadcasting the show would have put the BBC in breach of OFCOM election rules because they would have been unable to give all other candidates a similar opportunity.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 May 2019 22:08:17 10,783 posts
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    More please

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/10/carl-benjamin-milkshake-ukip-mep-cornwall
  • JamboWayOh 11 May 2019 00:18:09 14,150 posts
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    Christ, some of the twitter comments from that embedded twitter post make me despise humanity.
  • Ror 11 May 2019 00:42:46 18,684 posts
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    [O]ther Ukip MEP candidates have expressed fears that they could also be targeted with milkshakes while campaigning.
    This tickled me.
  • challenge_hanukkah 11 May 2019 06:44:46 11,025 posts
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    Careful though, Dankula is well hard.

    https://twitter.com/CountDankulaTV/status/1126895006294450178?s=19
  • challenge_hanukkah 11 May 2019 06:57:55 11,025 posts
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    I'm one of those not entirely comfortable with punching the people you don't agree with types, but that video of Waxy Lemon dancing about in front of that lad, clearing goading him made my blood boil.

    I'm not sure I wouldn't headbutt the little cunt if he was all up in my face like that.
  • JamboWayOh 11 May 2019 08:25:27 14,150 posts
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    challenge_hanukkah wrote:
    Careful though, Dankula is well hard.

    https://twitter.com/CountDankulaTV/status/1126895006294450178?s=19
    I don't support violence but piercing a hateful cunt's rhetoric with some milkshake is OK with me. Besides if it was him doing it he'd pass it off as harmful banter such as making rape jokes.

    Edited by JamboWayOh at 08:25:50 11-05-2019
  • fontgeeksogood 11 May 2019 08:30:14 6,519 posts
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    I support violence towards arsehole racist rabble rousers. Tommy Robinson shouldn't get to peddle his shithousery without consequence
  • hedben2013 11 May 2019 11:10:53 1,135 posts
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    If I ever see Tommy or Carl in public I'm asking for a selfie, setting it to video and recording myself going "This racist dickwad couldn't find the clitoris with 2 hands and a map!". Bet their change in expression would be priceless.

    Plus it would hopefully catch on, and then they'd have to be wary of milkshakes and selfies. Crowdsourced deplatforming.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 May 2019 15:19:31 10,783 posts
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    Edited by simpleexplodingmaybe at 15:19:48 11-05-2019
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 May 2019 16:31:36 16,324 posts
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    ďJews are the problemĒ

    https://twitter.com/dungeekin/status/1127222109237915650?s=21
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 May 2019 19:01:05 10,783 posts
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    Very fine people ...
  • chopsen 11 May 2019 20:17:40 20,512 posts
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    Shami Chakrabarti will go down in history as the worst Nazi hunter ever.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 May 2019 20:29:06 10,783 posts
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    It's such a shame that she chucked away all of her credibility to become someone who never deviates from the party line even if it contradicts the line they were giving the day before which she was also 100% on board with
  • chopsen 11 May 2019 20:52:19 20,512 posts
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    What I don't get is what's bringing this to prominence now? The examples of antisemitic elements of the party are are very much attributed to established components of the party. So where was the criticism of this before now? If it's so entrenched, it can't be new.

    This isn't a "oh this is just a smear" type argument. I completely accept that there are ample examples the labour party being a home to antisemitic sentiment and that people within labour seems apparently comfortable to express those views. And that's what I don't get. I've seen multiple examples of Jews expressing the feeling that Labour is no longer their home. But if that's the case, when did you? This *can't* have just happened now. At what point *did* you feel at home, given that all the indicators are that it is the *old* left that is most likely to harbour anti-semitic views?

    Or am I missing something here? (Narrator: He was)
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 May 2019 21:00:38 16,324 posts
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    Itís like a sore that was always there but has been aggravated with lots of vigorous scratching. Corbynís behaviour has emboldened and amplified certain views. Either we werenít aware of them before or it was easier to ignore. And then it perpetuated by some being pushed out, and in turn many others being pulled in by those views. So the net result is itís far worse now.
  • disusedgenius 11 May 2019 21:10:20 9,930 posts
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    chopsen wrote:
    What I don't get is what's bringing this to prominence now?
    There's a certain parallel with Me Too in regards to it highlighting a problem that's been around and taken for granted for literally decades. I can't say I get why now for either, I guess progress?
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 May 2019 21:12:16 16,324 posts
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    So hereís a thing. Richard Burgon posted this today.

    https://twitter.com/richardburgon/status/1127227818570657792?s=21

    Seems fine right? Except that flag emoji isnít the Palestinian flag. Itís the Jordanian flag. Why is that significant? Because ultra extremist antisemites claim that Jews never lived in Israel prior to Ď47, and use this flag to represent that.

    Hereís what will happen next. People will kick off, Burgon will claim it was an accident as the flags are so similar, and all the Corbyn supporters will say the Jews are seeing antisemitism where thereís none and it will validate the smear conspiracy.

    This is pure gaslighting, and it is constantly exhibited by the likes of Williamson, Murray, Galloway, Livingstone and yes, Corbyn. These are tactics...
  • chopsen 11 May 2019 21:19:14 20,512 posts
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    Sure, I can see how it's got *worse* but if it's always "been a sore" then I'm not quite sure how to articulate how I feel about Jewish people in labour who have just kind of decided to work within that in that time. I can see how any party needs to be broad church in order to secure power to get anything done, but...yeah I struggle to articulate how I feel about that.

    I've always felt uneasy about labour authoritarianism, and that is even without them having a particularly explicit beef with chopsens. If a party who's main remit was to centralise state power also had an element of anti-chopsenism then I'd absolutely shit myself, let alone be a member of them and lend them any legitimacy.

    I'm wary of looking like I'm blaming the victim here, and that's not my point at all. I can see that the world is not black and white and sometimes you have to work with people you don't see eye to eye with in order to achieve a greater good. My issue here is entirely with the labour party.
  • chopsen 11 May 2019 21:23:04 20,512 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    chopsen wrote:
    What I don't get is what's bringing this to prominence now?
    There's a certain parallel with Me Too in regards to it highlighting a problem that's been around and taken for granted for literally decades. I can't say I get why now for either, I guess progress?
    It's a weak parallel, imho.

    The labour antisemitism thing is about a specific organisation that has absolute control over its membership and it's constitution (edit: which people can elect to join). We can't expel people from the male gender for being pervs.

    Edited by chopsen at 21:26:42 11-05-2019
  • You-can-call-me-kal 11 May 2019 21:28:09 16,324 posts
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    Perhaps I was blissfully naive, but it really didnít seem to me like a major problem before. You had the odd nutcase on the fringe of the party, but I was brought up to believe Labour was Ďourí party. Judaism is very socialist by its nature; tzedakah and kibbutzim and such. Iíve never been aware of the issue in the party to what it is today. The sore analogy was probably too mild. Itís again more about a fringe component become mainstreamed in the party.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 11 May 2019 22:00:15 10,783 posts
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    I agree with Kal.

    In the 90s, say, these feelings and opinions may have existed around the edges but those people weren't anywhere near the leadership or internal leavers of power. Now however if they don't have a direct line to the top they certainly believe that it's their man and their cause which leads the charge. I think those who talk about numbers of individual are, wilfully or not, a distraction from the real issue as to why it's so prominent now which is more a question of influence and connectedness.

    Plus a general increase in wokeness should shine a light on problematic attitudes amongst the "good guys" just as much as among the "bad" or else it's worthless.
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