UK Politics Thread Page 236

  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 19:23:05 16,740 posts
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    Even those closest to Corbyn like Abbott and McDonnell are telling Corbyn not to listen to Milne and Murphy.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/105120/jeremy-corbyn-urged-sack-top-aides

    Personally I’m not convinced of this emerging narrative that he’s just a gullible old fool that means well but he’s been led astray by his more sinister aides. It doesn’t really matter anyway. The stain of all of this is never washing off any of them, nor those who have quietly watched it happen.

    Re: tonight’s Panorama, the claims are either true or not. Them having an axe to grind doesn’t make much difference. And we already know that Corbyn’s office have directly intervened in many of these cases as we’ve seen the leaked emails already in The Times. The main thing that’s coming out tonight is the scale of the cover up and corruption.

    But the level of waiving it all away before anyone has even seen the documentary shows that the minds of the cult are made up. No claim of racism made even by those within the party will be believed or taken seriously. All it does is make them believe even more that a Jewish conspiracy is behind all of this. Because they’re racists.

    Still, tune in as it’ll be a good laugh I’m sure.
  • Trowel 10 Jul 2019 19:36:50 22,646 posts
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    Intermittent showers of fact based Jeremy and Jennie memes are forecast for tonight.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1149002876485865475
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 19:37:21 16,740 posts
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    Leaked briefing document for Labour propagandists.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/corbyn-online-fightback-panorama-anti-semitism-panorama_uk_5d262256e4b0583e482b0ede?j0p

    Relatively reasonable PR advice in and of itself, but the real issue is that it’s proof that the Corbyn social media mafia are coerced and coordinated (which was always obvious).

    Edited by You-can-call-me-kal at 19:38:11 10-07-2019
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 19:43:58 16,740 posts
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    Dianne Abbott and Momentum have already posted tweets directly contravening this guidance.
  • Mr_Sleep 10 Jul 2019 19:46:56 22,775 posts
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    It is an interesting thing, I started out reading your posts on this subject kal with a certain skepticism. That isn't to say I doubted the substance of some of the links but I found many of the arguments somewhat bewildering as it was on twitter and I am not plugged into that world.

    With time, more evidence and the current implosion of the party from top to bottom it becomes ever more apparent that it is rotten to the core. The way this has been handled speaks very badly of the culture of the party.

    The thing that strikes me about why I may have been in doubt about the extent of the problems is that it seems incredible that it is happening. Of all the things to fail on.

    With the utter failure of the state to solve the brexit problem it seems bewildering that the Labour Party is so broken and twisted that they can't solve the internal problems and rise to do something to help.

    Our political times are dogged by each side disappearing up its own arse to the detriment of everyone involved, including the public. I am beginning to wonder what is in the water. This is true Europe wide too.
  • GoatApocalypse 10 Jul 2019 19:50:56 5,827 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Leaked briefing document for Labour propagandists.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/corbyn-online-fightback-panorama-anti-semitism-panorama_uk_5d262256e4b0583e482b0ede?j0p

    Relatively reasonable PR advice in and of itself, but the real issue is that it’s proof that the Corbyn social media mafia are coerced and coordinated (which was always obvious).
    Shocking news indeed that a political party briefs its friendly media representatives.

    In other news, the allegation that Panorama have misrepresented a lot of the evidence going into tonight's documentary gathers page; even ex-Guido bootlicker Alex Wickham is pushing it.

    It's not clear, at this point, whether and how he's been briefed by Dear Leader.

    (Snark aside, I'm again left wondering about the intentions of those involved and how this helps any ethnic minority communities feel safer)
  • GoatApocalypse 10 Jul 2019 20:07:59 5,827 posts
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    ^ applies to the briefing, too. The suggestion that there should be a greater focus on islamophobia *instead* is disgusting.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 20:10:35 16,740 posts
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    @GoatApocalypse

    I honestly can’t believe that after literally months of having nothing whatsoever to say on post after post after post representing evidence of serious antisemitism problems in the party, that was how you chose to break your silence. Amazing.

    Wonder away about the “intentions of those involved”. Would love to hear your thoughts.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 20:14:33 16,740 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    The thing that strikes me about why I may have been in doubt about the extent of the problems is that it seems incredible that it is happening. Of all the things to fail on.
    I wish I could believe that this was the reason why so many have been so reluctant to believe in the problem.
  • askew 10 Jul 2019 20:24:16 19,763 posts
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    GoatApocalypse wrote:
    ^ applies to the briefing, too. The suggestion that there should be a greater focus on islamophobia *instead* is disgusting.
    Wondered when this would appear:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/10/islamophobia-tory-party-britain?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • GoatApocalypse 10 Jul 2019 20:28:51 5,827 posts
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    At the risk of sounding like I've been briefed, you know my position about AS in the Labour Party. I've seen it for myself and I know it to be a real problem. You also know that I think Labour's response - particularly Corbyn's response - has been exceptionally poor. Finally, you know that I fully support the EHRC's investigation (for all its flaws), and hope it comes to a swift and clear conclusion that prompts real action.

    Labour has been institutionally racist for decades. I find it deeply problematic and hard to believe the sincerity of some involved in this - Watson, Streeting, Hodge, to name a few - when they've been complicit and actively engaged in other forms of racism (Watson and Streeting were vocal supporters of Phil Woolas; Hodge has used fash-adjacent language for years).

    I'm angry because I perceive some actors on the Labour right to be co-opting antisemitism for their own political goals, even being wildly contradictory at times (to this day, I don't know whether Hodge does or does not want the Leader's Office to be involved in disciplinary matters, and she willfully over-sells Corbyn's ability to intervene as it suits her).

    I'll be angry if Panorama's investigation is found wanting - not because I believe there's some mad conspiracy, but because it will give more succour to the cranks.

    I'm angry that Labour has not satisfactorily dealt with this, and that so many of the Jewish community - with whom the Party has traditionally stood in solidarity - now feel we're against them. As my follow-up post says, I strongly question the motives behind any brief which attempts to shift the focus onto islamophobia for political gain.

    I'm pissed off that a complete non-story about a party providing a media briefing has somehow gained currency as evidence of a dark and sinister power taking hold of the Party (this was LITERALLY ALISTAIR CAMPBELL'S ENTIRE FUCKING JOB), and even more fucking angry that NONE OF THE CUNTS FIND THE LINE ON ISLAMOPHOBIA PROBLEMATIC.

    So to be honest, fella, I'm more than a little fucked off with every cunt involved. And I still don't see how any of this helps the Jewish community.

    Apologies I've implied something else. I've been trying hard to speak less and listen more. My OP was careless.

    Edited by GoatApocalypse at 20:29:55 10-07-2019

    Edited by GoatApocalypse at 20:33:37 10-07-2019
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 20:52:03 16,740 posts
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    The problem is Labour antisemitism. That’s the problem. That’s the thing that needs to be solved.

    Everything else - people being insincere about it, people weaponising it, people co-opting it blah blah fucking blah - none of that should be the concern at this point, because none of those things would be happening if Labour wasn’t institutionally racist.

    Don’t worry about “the intentions of those involved”. They may be nefarious, but that is an issue that pales in comparison to the “dark and sinister power taking hold of the Party”, which despite your tone is very much the reality. Throwing shit at Watson, Hodge and co can wait until the small matter of a racist leader and his racist cronies and their racist supporters have been dealt with.

    And the media briefing isn’t a non-story, because for four years those outriders have been denying the issue and calling the claims “smears”, and this briefing means that it is likely they were told to do that. What’s especially sinister about the briefing is that it contains the phrase “They are correct to raise Antisemitism. It’s a very very real & serious problem in Labour”, which is the only time the party has admitted this (and only in private), whilst again pushing the “smear” narrative publicly. So yes, this is important.

    Listening is good, but to use a coined phrase, ‘silence is complicity’...
  • GoatApocalypse 10 Jul 2019 21:23:54 5,827 posts
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    I honestly don't think putting eg Watson in charge deals with the problem, which is why (for me) his sincerity is a real issue. And in many respects, he poses a much greater threat to a very large number of ethnic minorities. You might interpret that as whataboutery, but for me it comes down to this: how do we ensure that Labour renounces its endemic institutional racism? Swapping one form for another is not the answer. You just let more racists in, albeit offering a different - perhaps more politically expedient - flavour of racism.

    I don't think there's a "dark power" within the leadership - at least, its more benign than its been in my lifetime, which is damning it with the faintest praise I can muster. I think it's rank incompetence, complicated and exploited by opposing political interests. No conspiracy; just politics. Panorama and the aftermath that will surely follow may shed some light on this.

    The debate as to whether briefing amounts to control is mildly interesting, but what I would say is that I don't think those for whom the briefing is intended are being led, as such. They're highly likely to hold those views anyway and, to borrow a line from Chomsky, they're not being told what to think - but they wouldn't be receiving the briefing if they didn't agree. So it doesn't surprise me that they'd perceive such allegations as a smear, particularly given the way such allegations are usually framed.

    Lastly, while I've been very quiet here (I don't think I can add much to the debate, if I'm honest), I've been more active elsewhere - including within my Branch and Momentum. There are a lot of people on the ground (at least in South Birmingham) that are committed to rooting out antisemitism, educating people where possible and whistleblowing where it's not. The disciplinary process *seems* to work OK from that perspective, but that's a very small sample and not to excuse or minimise the obvious flaws in the system. I've said it before, but the Party would do extremely well to invest in some political education on this.

    I've become quite reflective on my own framing on this. I've always been clear (in my own mind, at least) that Corbyn and his inner circle aren't deities to be worshipped, merely the best vehicle I have for achieving my political goals. I've sort of circled back over nine years of Party activism and I'm coming back to the conclusion that the whole thing is a cruel joke and that I was foolish to believe otherwise. Certainly I've been more fulfilled by actual activism than party activism, and I feel like I'm losing patience with the project in the round. The party is no more democratic than it was 5 years ago, no better at utilising them membership than 5 years ago, has been incredibly slow to develop policy (including on Brexit, although they've gotten where I thought they would about 9 months later than they should've in many respects). It all feels like such a missed opportunity. Which is a long way of saying I'm sort of done taking sides in this one, because every part of the equation is fucked.
  • Mr_Sleep 10 Jul 2019 21:29:38 22,775 posts
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    You-can-call-me-kal wrote:
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    The thing that strikes me about why I may have been in doubt about the extent of the problems is that it seems incredible that it is happening. Of all the things to fail on.
    I wish I could believe that this was the reason why so many have been so reluctant to believe in the problem.
    I can only speak for myself but these days there are so many conspiracy stories along with a confusing mess of information sloshing around. It takes time and reflection to work out what seems plausible and rigorous.

    No doubt this also plays into information and issue fatigue. We only have so much bandwidth for concern and being that I am not Jewish or a member of the Labour Party it was not an important issue to me in the beginning. This has obviously changed. The fermament of this situation could easily have been a smear, political maneuvering or petty inter-party nonsense. However, it has turned out in the worst way.

    The layers of putrid actions being undertaken by everyone involved surprise me more and more every day.
  • GoatApocalypse 10 Jul 2019 21:31:55 5,827 posts
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    Should add that no-one seems to have verified that the briefing is real, and Waugh seems to have backpedalled on his original claim somewhat.
  • GoatApocalypse 10 Jul 2019 21:42:12 5,827 posts
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    Linking to two tweets, which I think perfectly encapsulate the issue, then I'm back into hibernation.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1149044328750362626?s=19

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1149049753772146688?s=19 (although on this one - not to excuse Corbyn's Extremely poor judgement - I'm still confused about when and why it's acceptable to conflate Israel with Jewishness, as the commentary seems to)
  • GoatApocalypse 10 Jul 2019 21:42:32 5,827 posts
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    G'night y'all.
  • Not-a-reviewer 10 Jul 2019 22:05:07 5,791 posts
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    The full version of the quote reads worse than the original!
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 22:10:50 16,740 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    The fermament of this situation could easily have been a smear, political maneuvering or petty inter-party nonsense.
    And yet when it comes to accusations of Islamophobia, racism, misogyny, homophobia etc, in any of the parties, they are taken at face value, and rightly so.

    I’m not having a go at you. It’s a broader observation and one I’ve talked about at length before. It’s just so tiring this whole issue. Even looking at the posts on this page I still see more portrayal of the accusers as the villains and the party as the victims. The whole thing has made it so clear to me how deep the societal mistrust of Jews is. It’s just horrible.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 22:12:52 16,740 posts
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    As for the quotes the Times already published full leaked emails that showed the extent to which Corbyn’s office were intervening. It’s established.
  • Not-a-reviewer 10 Jul 2019 22:18:37 5,791 posts
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    It’s weird so many people still believe all Jewish people somehow work together as one, instead of a bunch of people that happen to share a religion.

    I mean if they were that amazing at co-ordinating and co-operating secretly then they must be amazing people that are worthy of running the planet instead of the fuckwits that do it now.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Jul 2019 22:21:12 10,908 posts
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    As if people are still trotting out variations on "believe victims, unless they're Jewish"
  • mothercruncher 10 Jul 2019 22:21:40 16,470 posts
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    You say that but the Jews have done exactly that and conspired to have a stranglehold on the best comedy for more than 50 years now.
  • Not-a-reviewer 10 Jul 2019 22:23:33 5,791 posts
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    That’s not a conspiracy, they just know what’s funny. Like only black people can dance.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 22:26:57 16,740 posts
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    Hero in the Labour Press Team just got fired

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1149063163251515392?s=21
  • Not-a-reviewer 10 Jul 2019 22:33:59 5,791 posts
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    Claiming it was hacked. That tweet is 2 minutes after their previous one and less than 10 before their next tweet.

    Bunch of cunts.
  • Trowel 10 Jul 2019 22:37:42 22,646 posts
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    I can't help but think the loud rebuttal of large parts of the documentary just highlights the silent shame of the rest of it.
  • You-can-call-me-kal 10 Jul 2019 22:45:15 16,740 posts
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    Trowel wrote:
    I can't help but think the loud rebuttal of large parts of the documentary just highlights the silent shame of the rest of it.
    Small parts?
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Jul 2019 23:06:24 10,908 posts
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    This feels like the perfect quote tweet to end the day on

    https://twitter.com/adamwagner1/status/1148984877896912896?s=21
  • JamboWayOh 10 Jul 2019 23:51:54 14,694 posts
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    Hmm. What do you think? A bit of whataboutery here from Owen? It's timed to perfection.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/10/islamophobia-tory-party-britain

    Edited by JamboWayOh at 00:05:06 11-07-2019
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