richarddavies wrote:Don't know why but I'm seeing this guy as having really long arms and giving a double thumbs up. |
Star Wars Episode IX: Rise of Skywalker • Page 63
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RawShark 2,202 posts
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beastmaster 22,373 posts
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Registered 17 years agoelstoof wrote:
I totally forgot that film existed.
beastmaster wrote: All of the Disney films since they took over have made over a billion.
Solo didn’t, did it? -
AcidSnake 8,461 posts
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Registered 15 years agoMalek86 wrote:
I don't remember anyone having an issue with the kid using the force for the pod racing...The ending is different as it's just so very poorly written and the series of "oops" moments that puts him on the correct trajectory to take down the control ship...
AcidSnake wrote:
Indeed, and nobody liked said kid.
As for Rey, yeah, you had a kid doing podracing and singlehandedly taking out a trade federation control ship (oops)...And Luke going from piloting speeders and light aircraft to spaceships in a few minutes and those things never seemed to bother anyone...
As for Luke, he did overcome a lot. He was billed as a good pilot from the onset already, so at least that checks out, but how long does it take him to actually become a good Jedi? He's only got good by the last movie, because the entirety of Empire consists of Luke being a failure at everything.
That the kid came across as unlikable is a different matter...
Luke being a good pilot means it checks out? Although it's not specified I always saw Luke as someone who hadn't been off-world before (except when he was born)...It's like if the upcoming sequel to Top Gun has Maverick deciding he wants a go on the space shuttle because he's a good pilot...
It's implied he's a good pilot because of the force (like his father), yet if Rey does it it's wrong?
Rey got good at the same pace as Luke. She was a better fighter from the get go but then she did fight with that stick of hers beforehand... -
The_Goon 1,457 posts
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Registered 8 years agoAcidSnake wrote:
Que? Wasn't she jedi-mind tricking and force grabbing stuff in TFA?...
Rey got good at the same pace as Luke. She was a better fighter from the get go but then she did fight with that stick of hers beforehand...
Hardly the same pace as Luke, no?
As far as I'm concerned, they laid the groundwork for Luke, however little. Rey's abilities came from nowhere seemingly. -
AcidSnake 8,461 posts
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Registered 15 years agoThe_Goon wrote:
Hmmm, it's been a while but I don't remember the force grab stuff? Mind trick sure, but that seems like one of the easiest things they do...
AcidSnake wrote:
Que? Wasn't she jedi-mind tricking and force grabbing stuff in TFA?...
Rey got good at the same pace as Luke. She was a better fighter from the get go but then she did fight with that stick of hers beforehand...
Hardly the same pace as Luke, no?
As far as I'm concerned, they laid the groundwork for Luke, however little. Rey's abilities came from nowhere seemingly.
Maybe I remember incorrectly but she started lifting stuff in Ep 8 and only effectively controlling it in the very last few minutes. But then Luke did a one hand handstand and was controlling rocks all over the place in Ep 5...
As for the fights she confronts Kylo in 7 but as had been shown earlier he was either weakened or just shit as Finn did the same...She had the proper fight with those red guard dudes in 8 but then Luke went up against Vader in 5...
I think it's sort of similar... -
beastmaster 22,373 posts
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Registered 17 years agoShe forced grabbed the sabre from the snow with her battle with Kylo Ren when the sabre flew past him.
Would have been way cooler if Luke caught it. -
AcidSnake 8,461 posts
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Registered 15 years agobeastmaster wrote:
Ah yeah, completely forgot, right you are...
She forced grabbed the sabre from the snow with her battle with Kylo Ren when the sabre flew past him.
Would have been way cooler if Luke caught it. -
Zerobob 3,017 posts
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Registered 12 years agoMalek86 wrote:
Exactly. The Phantom Menace shouldn't be held up as a good example of filmmaking for a start.
AcidSnake wrote:
Indeed, and nobody liked said kid.
As for Rey, yeah, you had a kid doing podracing and singlehandedly taking out a trade federation control ship (oops)...And Luke going from piloting speeders and light aircraft to spaceships in a few minutes and those things never seemed to bother anyone...
As for Luke, he did overcome a lot. He was billed as a good pilot from the onset already, so at least that checks out, but how long does it take him to actually become a good Jedi? He's only got good by the last movie, because the entirety of Empire consists of Luke being a failure at everything.
In A New Hope Luke received training from Obi-Wan. Then in Empire Luke failed during his training with Yoda and never completed it, then lost to Vader and got his hand chopped off. He failed at things but crucially learned things about the Force from this experience. Everything Luke does is not only within the established rules of the universe, but also within the limitations of his character's knowledge and abilities - his piloting ability being his only actual skill you're aware of.
Also, along the way, nobody he meets really likes him, apart from Obi-Wan. Even Leia insults him for being short when she first meets him.
Rey's character is in complete contrast to this.
She's been a desert-based scavenger her whole life, used to fending for herself, which somewhat explains her fighting ability and maybe some of her mechanical knowledge. However, with no training or additional knowledge of the Force, she pilots a spaceship (well enough to pull off an impossible shot at a Tie Fighter) successfully performs a Jedi mind trick (without even knowing what one is or how to perform one) and mentally outperforms & physically beats a trained Jedi in a lightsaber duel.
Also, everyone she meets immediately likes her and are impressed by her skills, accumulating in the perfect crescendo when Leia and Rey console each other over Han's death, forgetting Han's lifelong friend Chewbacca even exists.
Yes, they attempted to retcon an explanation for Rey's abilities by making her Palpatine's granddaughter in the final film, but nobody is born with knowledge of the Force or the ability to wield it to its full potential, yet Rey was born with both. This gives her no room to grow as a character, hence she's fundamentally a poorly conceived protagonist.
Edited by Zerobob at 14:18:39 10-01-2020 -
Meanwhile baby Yoda lifts a fucking huge rhino motherfucker and nobody bats an eyelid.
Maybe his proficiency with the force is explained later on but haven't watched all of it yet. He might well do more audacious stuff too, idk.
But certainly that seemed to imply that some people are born with knowledge of the force. -
Anakin was an ace pod-racer because of his connection to the force
Luke boosted of being able to shoot a romp rat in his T-16, which was meant to show his connection to the force.
Donnie Yen used his force sensitive abilities to assist his fighting.
People who have a connection to the force, are able to use that connection before they have training, just they don't realise they are using the force. -
Ror 20,336 posts
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Registered 12 years agoWomp rat. Come on, Grax. -
Zerobob 3,017 posts
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Registered 12 years agoYes that's basically how I've always seen it. You can use the Force at a basic level from birth, but you need actual knowledge to use it effectively.
However, you wouldn't know certain abilities exist without being told - such as mind tricks - and you wouldn't know how to make effective use of it unless you're trained, such as lightsaber techniques.
But screw it, if we're referencing things that happen in the prequels, sequels, and spin-offs as canon then that's the debate over, because at this point it's been established the Force can do anything from necromancy to jazz poetry. -
*jizz poetry, surely? -
AcidSnake 8,461 posts
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Registered 15 years agoZerobob wrote:
I don't think anyone did, just that the same things that make people dislike Rey can apply to Anakin and Luke as well...
The Phantom Menace shouldn't be held up as a good example of filmmaking for a start.
In A New Hope Luke received training from Obi-Wan. Then in Empire Luke failed during his training with Yoda and never completed it, then lost to Vader and got his hand chopped off. He failed at things but crucially learned things about the Force from this experience.
Training from Obi-Wan? You mean the part where he got a helmet put on his head? That took all of 3 minutes before they noticed Alderaan was blown up and they were captured.
In Ep 8 during her training Rey runs off, faces Snoke and Kylo and fails to sway him back to the light side but learned from the experience of maybe not jumping into those situations without preparing...
Everything Luke does is not only within the established rules of the universe, but also within the limitations of his character's knowledge and abilities - his piloting ability being his only actual skill you're aware of.
The were no rules prior to those films, so it would be hard to not adhere to them. If Luke exploded Jabba the Hutt with his mind powers it would've become canon there and then.
As for his knowledge in Ep 5 he force grabs his lightsaber from the snow even though he hadn't ever seen anyone do that before.
And again, if Luke is an experienced space pilot having trained with only speeders/aircraft it equally conceivable Rey did too...
Also, along the way, nobody he meets really likes him, apart from Obi-Wan. Even Leia insults him for being short when she first meets him.
He was dressed as a stormtrooper and she was awaiting either interrogation or execution, I don't think Leia would do the same if he just walked into a bar or something...
Also, he met 3 people and two droids. The droids and Obi-Wan like him and Han and Chewie are still in trust no-one mode which they grow out of over the duration of the OT...
nobody is born with knowledge of the Force or the ability to wield it to its full potential, yet Rey was born with both. This gives her no room to grow as a character, hence she's fundamentally a poorly conceived protagonist.
She has no idea what the force is and uses two minor examples in Ep 7 (mind trick, force grab). Like Luke who had no idea what the force was and uses one, maybe two minor examples in Ep 4 (Drone training and Death Star auto aim)...
Her arc is from naive, wide eyed youth, to slightly more confident, to wanting to convert someone without falling to the dark side herself, to succeeding
It's just a bunch of films about space wizards! The OT were better films without a doubt, but at no point do I think the character of Rey can be considered offensive because she's overpowered... -
Nazo 1,951 posts
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Registered 12 years agoWhy does Obi-wan think turning into a ghost that can do fuck all except talk to people will make him “more powerful than you can possibly imagine”? -
Optimas 32 posts
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Registered 15 years ago@Nazo ros and tlj show the ghosts being able to effect the physical world
Edited by Optimas at 15:02:32 10-01-2020 -
Psiloc 6,366 posts
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Registered 14 years agoWell he guides Luke to use the Force, but yeah that doesn't require being dead -
Nazo wrote:
Cos you can't kill a ghost but I imagine they can be fucking annoying having them in your ear forever.
Why does Obi-wan think turning into a ghost that can do fuck all except talk to people will make him “more powerful than you can possibly imagine”?
It begs th question why force ghost anakin doesn't call kylo ren a big fat stinky poo poo head as he was clearly force ghostin' at the end of Jedi.
Also, where did Obi Wan go? we saw force ghost Yoda in ep 8 but no O-bee. -
Maybe once they ascend to force-ghosthood they do become super powerful, but they also realise the triviality of corporeal existence. It's all beneath them, so they just swan about on the force-ghost equivalent of a Saga Holidays cruise. -
Goban 10,121 posts
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Registered 16 years ago@Graxlar_v3
He was having a well deserved cup of tea. -
Malek86 12,331 posts
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Registered 14 years agoZerobob wrote:
I also saw it this way, and the prequels kinda ran with it too (Anakin can pilot better than any humans, but he can't actually "use" the force in any traditional manner until he's trained).
Yes that's basically how I've always seen it. You can use the Force at a basic level from birth, but you need actual knowledge to use it effectively.
However, you wouldn't know certain abilities exist without being told - such as mind tricks - and you wouldn't know how to make effective use of it unless you're trained, such as lightsaber techniques.
It's only the sequel trilogy that turns everyone into a superhero. It's not just Rey either, although she gets hit the worst because of her screen time. Remember the goddamn kid who non-chalantly pulled the broom? How many months did it take for Luke to barely be able to do the same thing in that Wampa cave? And I don't think anybody was teaching that kid either.
The real problem is that the new trilogy started during the Marvel craze. People don't want to see superheroes training and learning, they want to see superpowers, and stuff getting wrecked with said superpowers. A movie like ESB wouldn't work today.
Edited by Malek86 at 15:49:49 10-01-2020 -
Singularity 3,282 posts
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Registered 18 years agoMalek86 wrote:
Luke's problem was he didn't believe he could do it. He was too old and used to things how they were. Kids are stupid.
Remember the goddamn kid who non-chalantly pulled the broom? How many months did it take for Luke to barely be able to do the same thing in that Wampa cave? And I don't think anybody was teaching that kid either. -
Zerobob 3,017 posts
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Registered 12 years agoDidn't Yoda also say Luke was too old to begin the training, further reinforcing the idea that training is absolutely necessary to become a Jedi?
Sure, Rey swung a lightsaber at a rock, but she'd already defeated a trained Jedi by this point, with no training. -
Derblington 35,161 posts
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Registered 17 years agoAcidSnake wrote:
Except Luke did have some training to pull the saber from the snow in the cave on Hoth. Obi-wan specifically tells Luke that the Force "also obeys your commands" when they're on the Falcon in Ep4. "Stretch out with your feelings".
Stuff about Rey and Luke using Force powers with no training being the same.
Rey had no training and really couldn't have known how the mind trick worked. The Ep8 novel retcons it, I guess because of the criticism around it after Ep7. When Kylo probes her brain for the information on BB-8 and Rey pushes back into his head (which is actually her using powers instinctively that she doesn't know how to control) she forms her connection with him and sees how he uses the powers in his mind, and then she gives it a go on the Daniel Craig trooper. -
Derblington 35,161 posts
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Registered 17 years agoZerobob wrote:
Yoda says Anakin was too old to train in TPM! With Luke it was a case of the need for someone to fight, and he was the only shot at it.
Didn't Yoda also say Luke was too old to begin the training, further reinforcing the idea that training is absolutely necessary to become a Jedi?
Sure, Rey swung a lightsaber at a rock, but she'd already defeated a trained Jedi by this point, with no training.
It sets Rey up to be stronger than Vader, essentially. Which isn't a problem in and of itself, it's just really convenient they keep finding these most powerful Jedi all in the same story.
I bet she has a high midi-chlorian count! -
AcidSnake 8,461 posts
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Registered 15 years agoZerobob wrote:
What makes you think Kylo was a Jedi?
Didn't Yoda also say Luke was too old to begin the training, further reinforcing the idea that training is absolutely necessary to become a Jedi?
Sure, Rey swung a lightsaber at a rock, but she'd already defeated a trained Jedi by this point, with no training.
She'd defeated a wounded wannabe Sith who had difficulty keeping his own against Finn moments earlier and who was mainly trained by a pyjama wearing monster who looked like he had trouble getting out of his chair. Maybe Kylo was just shit at saber combat?
Remember he kept hitting himself for some reason...
And I always took Yoda as apprehensive of not creating another genocidal asshat and therefore making up an excuse to not train Luke... -
AcidSnake 8,461 posts
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Registered 15 years agoDerblington wrote:
Oh, come on. Those two phrases equal to training? That could mean just about anything. If he'd said "Shit starts to fly if you wave your hands about" maybe...
AcidSnake wrote:
Except Luke did have some training to pull the saber from the snow in the cave on Hoth. Obi-wan specifically tells Luke that the Force "also obeys your commands" when they're on the Falcon in Ep4. "Stretch out with your feelings".
Stuff about Rey and Luke using Force powers with no training being the same.
Fine, Rey touched Luke's lightsaber and the Force trained her right there and then, how's that? Will of the force...
Or hey, Han said "It's true, all of it". Maybe Rey had read Jedi comics as a kid or something and remembered the mind trick thing... -
Malek86 12,331 posts
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Registered 14 years agoNazo wrote:
I thought that was a metaphor? Obi-wan knows that he can't win against Vader, but he doesn't need to do because Luke will take his place. And he probably thought his death would further fuel Luke's desire to defeat Vader, hence those words.
Why does Obi-wan think turning into a ghost that can do fuck all except talk to people will make him “more powerful than you can possibly imagine”?
Well, at least until Vader drops the bomb about his parenthood and all that. But Lucas didn't think so far ahead, so I think that must have been the meaning at the time.
Edited by Malek86 at 17:09:51 10-01-2020 -
AcidSnake wrote:
Well, no. He's feeling it in action when he's defending against the training remote droid. He has an explanation and some experience, and there are 3 years between then and Hoth, so you could assume he's been practicing by himself and then seeks Yoda for actual training.
Derblington wrote:
Oh, come on. Those two phrases equal to training? That could mean just about anything. If he'd said "Shit starts to fly if you wave your hands about" maybe...
AcidSnake wrote:
Except Luke did have some training to pull the saber from the snow in the cave on Hoth. Obi-wan specifically tells Luke that the Force "also obeys your commands" when they're on the Falcon in Ep4. "Stretch out with your feelings".
Stuff about Rey and Luke using Force powers with no training being the same.
Fine, Rey touched Luke's lightsaber and the Force trained her right there and then, how's that? Will of the force...
Or hey, Han said "It's true, all of it". Maybe Rey had read Jedi comics as a kid or something and remembered the mind trick thing...
And there's more to the dialogue, I just referenced the bit that helped him put it into practice when he defends with the blast helmet on.
Edited by Derblington at 17:14:59 10-01-2020
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