Following PS5 - 'leaked' design Page 7

  • Carlo 18 Mar 2020 22:43:23 21,186 posts
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    My wild fanboyism talking here:

    It'll just take HZD, TLOU, GT, and some exclusive bits and bobs on CyberPunk like they did with Destiny and that'll be it for Xbox again.

    I have a crazy thought that Sony will go over the top bout the Tempest value proposition, and bundle some quality headset with the console for the same price as the xbox and send the world nuts.
  • JamboWayOh 18 Mar 2020 22:44:46 18,736 posts
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    OK put it back in your pants man.
  • mothercruncher 18 Mar 2020 22:45:54 17,608 posts
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    The Series X needs that raw grunt because itís tied to the ever evolving PC market. Theyíre offering more of the same but better looking. Sony will be doing some of that too, of course, but arenít wholly tied to ďstraightí gaming- there could be some really interesting and genuinely new feeling stuff based around the audio technology. Or they could do camp space marines in 8k/30fps. Hopefully not.
  • Derblington 18 Mar 2020 23:14:50 32,900 posts
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    Carlo wrote:
    Derblington wrote:
    Carlo wrote:
    The X will obviously cost significantly more, and overall it's faster, but by how much in real world games is what we'll all be dying to see!
    Faster how? I thought the major point of the first half of the Sony deep dive was that itís like shit off a shovel.
    On paper, the GFLOPS put it slightly ahead no? Like I said, can't wait to see real world games tests.
    Cerny addresses this directly in the presentation, looking at flops and CUs in isolation donít paint an accurate picture. He has an example of two set-ups producing the same theoretical output, but the architecture makes a huge difference in the actual delivery. Heís basically spelling out that they run the GPU faster than the XBSX.

    Ronís laymen explanations are good, and is essentially how Iíve interpreted the whole thing. Both machines will deliver the same general output but each will have specific advantages. The pure speed of the optimization in the PS5 may well give it the edge. Iíve seen a lot of comments about it not having the 5 loaded game-states in memory that MS has recently advertised, but if every game can cold boot in a second or 2 they simply donít need it.

    The audio stuff is really interesting too.
  • Phattso 18 Mar 2020 23:20:34 25,197 posts
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    Sony guy in making Sony solution sound better shocker. :-)

    Given this is the prick that launched the leaf blower, theyíll have to do a lot better than this to get my business. Roll on real games and other people getting to see and hear these things.

    Edited by Phattso at 23:20:44 18-03-2020
  • Malek86 18 Mar 2020 23:25:21 9,985 posts
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    Would be pretty fun to see someone try and put a GPU with less CUs at higher clocks, and then a GPU with more CUs at lower clocks, and see which is faster.

    Hard to tell, but the closest we can get today are the RX 5500 XT and the 5600. The former has 22 CUs at 1717mhz, the latter has 32 CUs at 1375mhz. Unfortunately, I can't find any benchmarks for the 5600. I guess AMD wanted people to focus on the XT version.

    Anyway, optimizations only count for so much, pretty much only for exclusives, because devs will be undoubtedly making their games for all platforms (including the PC, where regular SSDs and even some mechanical HDDs are much more widespread - so much for optimizing for console architecture).

    Edited by Malek86 at 23:29:43 18-03-2020
  • Derblington 18 Mar 2020 23:27:24 32,900 posts
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    https://twitter.com/dark1x/status/1240310267407405058

    The craziest thing about PS5 is the speed of the SSD. 5.5 GB/s is just part of the story - there is a lot of custom silicon in there to ensure that the system isn't bottlenecked in other areas. It's *REALLY* fast on paper - a lot faster than Xbox Series X even.
  • Phattso 18 Mar 2020 23:28:41 25,197 posts
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    An SSD is a pretty easy upgrade for a PC. Wouldnít be surprised to see firms mandating them during the next gen. The slightly less exotic MS solution would seem to be the best middle ground to target there. PS exclusives would be the only ones that could design around having the Uber fast ssd Iíd guess.
  • Derblington 18 Mar 2020 23:30:57 32,900 posts
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    They said you donít need to design for it. You just point to the data and itíll handle all the compression/decompression stuff, so everyone will benefit.
  • Malek86 18 Mar 2020 23:31:12 9,985 posts
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    @Phattso yeah, an SSD is an easy upgrade, but in that case most people will go for a cheap SATA SSD. Which doesn't really help all that much in terms of pure speed, just in access time. That's still great, but it means you can't quite build your game around insane loading speeds.
  • Derblington 18 Mar 2020 23:33:51 32,900 posts
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    And non-custom memory expansion is much better. I thought we were past that after the X360.
  • DakeyrasUK 18 Mar 2020 23:35:46 4,069 posts
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    Seems to me that xbsx will have the initalial advantage of multiplats performing better, more fps as those games will also be built for this current gen. Therefore they wont be design to take advantage of the twice as fast Gbit/sec ssd I the multiplat games perhaps all gen.

    However, they have the exclusives thisbgen for sure and I'm generally intrigued to see what devs come up with not having to constrain level design because of memory bandwidth. However, I dont think we will see these in the first couple of years, maybe towards the end of that period.
  • Phattso 18 Mar 2020 23:37:57 25,197 posts
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    Derblington wrote:
    They said you donít need to design for it. You just point to the data and itíll handle all the compression/decompression stuff, so everyone will benefit.
    Thatís not what Iím saying. If the PS5 is the only one with game changing loading speeds, then only first party devs can design an experience to leverage that. Everyone else will target the middle ground.

    Itíll be like the PS3 in that regard. After a few years the Cell aware engines were doing amazing shit. The 360 still wiped the floor with it though. ;)

    Iím not even sure if Iím in or out of this gen anyways. Letís see the games.
  • Malek86 18 Mar 2020 23:38:34 9,985 posts
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    @Derblington well, I mean, he made it sound like you really don't weant to put just any hard drive inside the console... if you can only put uber-expensive drives in there, it won't be much of an advantage over a proprietary solution.

    Anyway, I'm not terribly enthusiastic about either console so far. They seem to be going for performance over price. For that reason Lockhart is still potentially the most interesting of the bunch for me - but I'm ready to be disappointed.

    Edited by Malek86 at 23:40:24 18-03-2020
  • Derblington 18 Mar 2020 23:58:44 32,900 posts
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    No, but having multiple options form different manufacturers will mean prices will differ. With MS, youíre at their mercy.

    All will be expensive but youíll see the Sony options drop in price over time, and you wonít need one immediately.
  • NBZ 19 Mar 2020 00:31:10 2,424 posts
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    I am surprised that the NVME drive is not faster than it is.

    It is only later this year that the proper controllers that can support the full speed of NVME will be released and I expected Sony to use them.

    On the graphics side, for the current gen, the difference in graphics performance at launch was around 50% (1.2 TFLOPS V 1.8 TFLOPS). This time it is around 15% and Sony seems to have plans to bridge that gap further.

    On the other hand Microsoft could always up their speeds too. It would be interesting to see a digital foundry video with testing the variables.
  • MMMarmite 19 Mar 2020 02:09:01 1,616 posts
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    @NBZ I would imagine Sony are looking to keep costs within reason rather than trying to hit the 7.8GB/s ceiling of NVMe over PCIe 4.0.

    Also timing is an issue, Sony have already said itís releasing PS5 at the end of 2020 - they will have locked the system design months ago in preparation for manufacturing. Updating your whole storage sub-system isnít a last minute change.
  • NBZ 19 Mar 2020 02:24:02 2,424 posts
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    I understand that, but it could have been planned for. The only change to the ssd would be an updated controller - they have gone for custom anyway, so the overall cost of the drive would be the same.

    Still, it is twice as fast as what Microsoft have gone for.

    I wonder if it will have the same drawbacks as current NVME drives - it wont be SLC so performance will drop when it gets filled past a certain point (50% for MLC, 33/25% for TLC or QLC drives).
  • Phattso 19 Mar 2020 09:13:59 25,197 posts
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    NBZ wrote:
    On the other hand Microsoft could always up their speeds too. It would be interesting to see a digital foundry video with testing the variables.
    Yeah - with so many extra CUs in there, adding 100Mhz or more would change the game again. It'll be interesting to see how it all works out.

    I'd have to say that loading time is probably more important to me than anything else - but I really really don't trust Sony to build a quiet box, so we'll see how that goes.
  • Carlo 19 Mar 2020 09:15:22 21,186 posts
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    Phattso wrote:
    I'd have to say that loading time is probably more important to me than anything else - but I really really don't trust Sony to build a quiet box, so we'll see how that goes.
    Case in point. Witcher 3 was a game I stopped playing because of the reload times on death.

    Utterly shit.
  • Phattso 19 Mar 2020 09:20:58 25,197 posts
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    Indeed! At least neither of them is gonna be a slouch in that regard - I installed Witcher 3 on the SSD on my PC to avoid long loads, and that was great.

    But if people start building astonishing things around that load speed (and assuming adding a 3rd party drive doesn't completely mess that up) then I'd be very intrigued to see 'em.
  • Bichii 19 Mar 2020 09:24:05 2,869 posts
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    To me load times are one of the most important things. Waiting for a reload on PS4 after a death makes me so mad. :)
  • Derblington 19 Mar 2020 09:30:09 32,900 posts
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    I think the fact that they specifically spoke about power/heat management for 5 mins, and acknowledged poor track-record, suggests theyíre very aware of the importance of it.
  • richarddavies 19 Mar 2020 09:39:17 7,579 posts
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    I'm also interested to know how much these ssd's that aren't even available to buy yet will cost when they do come out if you want to upgrade (and let's face it you're likely going to need to) sounds like they're pretty cutting edge, tech wise.
  • Ron_Justice 19 Mar 2020 10:14:54 3,197 posts
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    richarddavies wrote:
    I'm also interested to know how much these ssd's that aren't even available to buy yet will cost when they do come out if you want to upgrade (and let's face it you're likely going to need to) sounds like they're pretty cutting edge, tech wise.
    One thing you can be absolutely certain of - they'll be cheaper than the proprietary ones needed for the XBSX.
  • Malek86 19 Mar 2020 11:12:14 9,985 posts
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    The high frequency on the PS5 is what worries me most. Alright, so they balance the power usage between CPU and GPU, but the fact remains that at peak, the GPU is running at higher clocks than any comparable PC part. I even wonder about potential yield issues at such high clocks, but surely they have thought about that already.

    Now granted, hitting peak GPU performance would be a specific scenario - one that, I imagine, would probably be reserved for any particle-heavy or alpha-heavy scenes, and those usually last for a few moments at most. So the card would only need to sustain the load for a short time. While a different scenario, such as when you climb a tall tower in Assassin's Creed and get to see the scenery, will presumably redirect power to the CPU instead - which might result in a resolution hit?

    Given that the components usage needs to be variable, I imagine that dynamic resolution will be a must.

    It's an interesting design for sure. We'll have to see how that translates in reality. What's important, I think, is that the system can manage the workload by itself, otherwise third-party devs might just not bother. As a general rule, devs tend to prefer the easier and more direct approach of having more power to deal with.

    (I don't doubt that the likes of Naughty Dog and Guerrilla will be micromanaging everything in order to extract every possible ounce of performance from the system, but can we really trust Capcom and Activision to do that?)

    Edited by Malek86 at 11:15:10 19-03-2020
  • Phattso 19 Mar 2020 11:15:47 25,197 posts
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    Ron_Justice wrote:
    richarddavies wrote:
    I'm also interested to know how much these ssd's that aren't even available to buy yet will cost when they do come out if you want to upgrade (and let's face it you're likely going to need to) sounds like they're pretty cutting edge, tech wise.
    One thing you can be absolutely certain of - they'll be cheaper than the proprietary ones needed for the XBSX.
    Quite likely - although the fact that the XBSX is using slower technology might mean that it's also cheaper to manufacture. It'll be interesting to see.

    In a world where Nintendo charge SIXTY FIVE FUCKING POUNDS for a pro controller that can't go from here to there without a stick failing, I think both of the next gen consoles can slip expensive peripherals under the radar.
  • Malek86 19 Mar 2020 11:19:42 9,985 posts
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    @Phattso especially if MS really decides to release the Lockhart at $300. At that point, they will be looking to make some money through overpriced accessories and expansion options.
  • Fake_Blood 19 Mar 2020 11:52:54 10,214 posts
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    Great, another gen where we'll have usb HDDs connected at the back. All this talk of SSDs is nice, but include a 2.5 inch bay in the back for a regular sized HDD please.

    Because some games already come in at +100GB so I do wonder how they are going to manage disk space.
    Especially with the game-state resume thing, I'm pretty sure it will work like hibernate in windows, where they just dump all the ram to disk. 16GB at 3.5GB/s would indeed only take a few seconds like they've shown in that video. Downside is it will eat SSD space.

    So if you start out with 1TB, then you need room for the OS, game-states and so on, maybe in the end you'll only be able to have like 6 games fully installed on the SSD.

    So really I think they are going to take disk management completely out of our hands. If you play COD singleplayer for instance I think it'll only have the current level and maybe the next two levels on the SSD, then stream in the rest from your usb HDD or even download in the background.
  • MMMarmite 19 Mar 2020 12:32:08 1,616 posts
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    NBZ wrote:
    I understand that, but it could have been planned for. The only change to the ssd would be an updated controller - they have gone for custom anyway, so the overall cost of the drive would be the same.
    But that's like saying AMD will have Zen 3 cores out soon, why didn't Sony plan to use those? They can't just drop a new faster controller in and call it a day, they are using non-standard features and the rest of the system has to be able to deal with the increased performance.

    @Fake_Blood I think the assumption is that game sizes will drop a fair bit because of the reduced need to optimise games for the slower HDD like replicating assets hundreds of times over the HDD.

    Edited by MMMarmite at 12:37:37 19-03-2020
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