Following PS5 - 'leaked' design Page 8

  • Derblington 19 Mar 2020 12:52:28 32,705 posts
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    Fake_Blood wrote:
    Great, another gen where we'll have usb HDDs connected at the back. All this talk of SSDs is nice, but include a 2.5 inch bay in the back for a regular sized HDD please.
    All the speed benefits are lost with that approach, so it would sacrifice the system. Sony have said itís ideal for PS4 titles running on PS5, so you can, but the internal expansion bay is specifically to maximize PS5 storage.
  • ozthegweat 19 Mar 2020 13:17:40 2,401 posts
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    It's ridiculous that "almost all of the top 100 PS4 games" are playable on PS5, while on Series X, all Xbox One games are playable (not to mention 360 and 1).

    Sony still doesn't get that people don't like to lose the ability to play older games.
  • Malek86 19 Mar 2020 13:24:47 9,713 posts
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    Sony was always a bit like that, more oriented toward the future. Though I think even they shat the bed with the mediocre (and that's being generous) work on the PS1 Classic, or when the early PS2 games on PS4 were skipping frames. But maybe that just goes to further show that they don't think the past is quite as important as the present and future. And hey, at least they patched those PS2 games. Well, most of them.

    I am a bit surprised that the PS5 wouldn't have 100% compatibility with PS4 games in the first place, but maybe it does and we're just talking about boost mode. Anywya, I imagine they will clarify soon.

    Edited by Malek86 at 13:25:47 19-03-2020
  • Carlo 19 Mar 2020 13:29:58 21,013 posts
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    ozthegweat wrote:
    It's ridiculous that "almost all of the top 100 PS4 games" are playable on PS5, while on Series X, all Xbox One games are playable (not to mention 360 and 1).

    Sony still doesn't get that people don't like to lose the ability to play older games.
    So just keep the console surely?
  • Technoishmatt 19 Mar 2020 13:41:10 3,928 posts
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    None of those explanations on the variable clock speed mean anything, sorry :)

    Some of the descriptions literally were for what MS is doing with the series X, in terms of knowing what the total thermal capability is. But there the approach is to simply design the system and cooling to be able to manage that. The PS5 is supposed to reduce clock speeds. How is that different to the throttling my laptop does?

    The only thing I think I can glean from it is that they will share resources across the CPU and GPU if they can. But this seems hopelessly complex to have to design for? Means you can ramp up graphic complexity in cut scenes?

    On the SSD speeds and proprietary expansion. A major point MS made was that SSD heat is a major issue. Rated I/O is one thing but that in general workload heat massively reduces this. Their approach is to build in a cooling solution to ensure the design spec is reached constantly, ie fixed. Hence the external expansion is especially designed with a heatsink.

    Based on MS performance (after the 360), I trust them to know their stuff cooling and heat management!

    Edited by Technoishmatt at 13:42:19 19-03-2020
  • Fake_Blood 19 Mar 2020 13:46:39 10,079 posts
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    Derblington wrote:
    Fake_Blood wrote:
    Great, another gen where we'll have usb HDDs connected at the back. All this talk of SSDs is nice, but include a 2.5 inch bay in the back for a regular sized HDD please.
    All the speed benefits are lost with that approach, so it would sacrifice the system. Sony have said itís ideal for PS4 titles running on PS5, so you can, but the internal expansion bay is specifically to maximize PS5 storage.
    Why would an internal bay be slower than a usb HDD? The point is to have a couple TB storage that can transfer a game in a matter of minutes to the SSD.
  • Derblington 19 Mar 2020 13:56:19 32,705 posts
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    ozthegweat wrote:
    It's ridiculous that "almost all of the top 100 PS4 games" are playable on PS5, while on Series X, all Xbox One games are playable (not to mention 360 and 1).

    Sony still doesn't get that people don't like to lose the ability to play older games.
    ďAt launchĒ. Youíll get the library, just not immediately, in the same way that the Xbox One didnít launch with any BC, it came later and they added to it over time.
    Youíll likely find that more than the top 100 work, itís just not guaranteed because they havenít tested every title.

    Everyone realizes that BC is nice to have, itís why theyíve done it. Itís why PSNow has PS3 titles. Itís why MS put effort into their BC program. Itís why Nintendo have some pretty crappy options for very select titles.
    But youíre never getting everything on any platform, outside of PC. You donít on Xbox either, in terms of Xbox OG and 360 titles. They spent time adding titles through the generation.
    This is the first time itís being made available at launch in such a large capacity.
  • Derblington 19 Mar 2020 13:59:45 32,705 posts
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    Fake_Blood wrote:
    Derblington wrote:
    Fake_Blood wrote:
    Great, another gen where we'll have usb HDDs connected at the back. All this talk of SSDs is nice, but include a 2.5 inch bay in the back for a regular sized HDD please.
    All the speed benefits are lost with that approach, so it would sacrifice the system. Sony have said itís ideal for PS4 titles running on PS5, so you can, but the internal expansion bay is specifically to maximize PS5 storage.
    Why would an internal bay be slower than a usb HDD? The point is to have a couple TB storage that can transfer a game in a matter of minutes to the SSD.
    That wasnít what I meant, sorry.
    But to have an internal USB HDD bay alongside the installed drive and internal SSD expansion would make the machine pretty chunky on top of what it already will be. They prioritized an internal SSD space for PS5 titles, which is the right call if you want something to put in there.
    Ed: though I guess you could share the space so itíd accept both internally providing the drives are the same size. I assume theyíre thinking itís easier to provide the same option from 4 so that you donít have to buy another at a different physical specification.

    Edited by Derblington at 14:12:59 19-03-2020
  • Derblington 19 Mar 2020 14:01:16 32,705 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    The only thing I think I can glean from it is that they will share resources across the CPU and GPU if they can.
    This is confirmed in the talk.
  • Malek86 19 Mar 2020 14:04:12 9,713 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    The only thing I think I can glean from it is that they will share resources across the CPU and GPU if they can. But this seems hopelessly complex to have to design for? Means you can ramp up graphic complexity in cut scenes?
    Most likely, it would be mabaged at system level, without too much work from the developers. For example (I assume), the GPU clocks would ramp up when there are lots of particles on screen, while the CPU clocks would increase when you are looking at a distant scenery.

    I'm sure some crazier devs (mostly first-party ones) will also be able to micro-manage the workload according to their own needs in order to really extract every possible drop of performance from the console, but I'm also sure there will be some tools to make life easier for other devs, especially multiplat ones.

    I mean, Sony is not stupid, and they know developer support is paramount. Especially after the PS3, pretty sure they learned their lesson there. Nobody has ever complained about the PS4 being hard to make games for. And since MS got some criticism on that regard for the Xbox One, which apparently they fixed with the X, I imagine they will also focus on ease of development.

    Overall, this might just end up as the easiest generation for developers yet. Assuming the success of the Switch doesn't screw things up for Sony and MS.

    Edited by Malek86 at 14:07:07 19-03-2020
  • ozthegweat 19 Mar 2020 14:27:30 2,401 posts
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    Derblington wrote:
    ďAt launchĒ. Youíll get the library, just not immediately, in the same way that the Xbox One didnít launch with any BC, it came later and they added to it over time.
    Youíll likely find that more than the top 100 work, itís just not guaranteed because they havenít tested every title.
    Doesn't change that it's ridiculous that the PS5 wasn't engineered to play all previous-gen games period, without having to test and patch games. Especially when there's no CPU architecture change this time around.

    Actually, I haven't found a clear statement that all Xbox One games are playable without patch on day 1 on Series X. So perhaps MS is equally inept.

    OK I'm a bit hard on Sony and MS, I know it's not easy, but still.

    Derblington wrote:
    This is the first time itís being made available at launch in such a large capacity.
    I believe PS2 played all PSX games, and launch PS3s were able to play all PS2 games. So it's not unheard of.
  • MMMarmite 19 Mar 2020 14:34:00 1,613 posts
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    Technoishmatt wrote:
    The PS5 is supposed to reduce clock speeds. How is that different to the throttling my laptop does?
    From what I gather the difference is laptops use thermal throttling while the PS5 will be using activity/workload throttling.

    I'm guessing the "monitors" mentioned will try to determine the specific work being done on the CPU/GPU and reduce clock speeds if it's something they know causes a prolonged spike in performance, that way it reduces the need for ramping the fans up. Devs will know that all PS5s will work in the same manner so can try to optimise the performance spikes or work with the reduced clock speeds for those parts of their game.
  • MrAGSystems 19 Mar 2020 14:52:43 582 posts
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    ozthegweat wrote:
    Derblington wrote:
    ďAt launchĒ. Youíll get the library, just not immediately, in the same way that the Xbox One didnít launch with any BC, it came later and they added to it over time.
    Youíll likely find that more than the top 100 work, itís just not guaranteed because they havenít tested every title.
    Doesn't change that it's ridiculous that the PS5 wasn't engineered to play all previous-gen games period, without having to test and patch games. Especially when there's no CPU architecture change this time around.

    Actually, I haven't found a clear statement that all Xbox One games are playable without patch on day 1 on Series X. So perhaps MS is equally inept.

    OK I'm a bit hard on Sony and MS, I know it's not easy, but still.

    Derblington wrote:
    This is the first time itís being made available at launch in such a large capacity.
    I believe PS2 played all PSX games, and launch PS3s were able to play all PS2 games. So it's not unheard of.
    Didn't the Wii also support the GameCube library at launch? The classic Wii design even has all the GC controller ports.

    And the 3DS plays DS games.
  • mothercruncher 19 Mar 2020 15:22:21 17,361 posts
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    The launch PS3 quite liderally had a PS2 inside it in order to do emulation iirc. It wasnít emulating in other words.
  • MrAGSystems 19 Mar 2020 15:42:43 582 posts
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    Only the JP and US models. The EU had partial software emulation.
  • Malek86 19 Mar 2020 15:49:37 9,713 posts
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    Backward compatibility, so far, was almost always a "forced" solution - essentially, include old hardware, or a derivative of it, so that you can play old games exactly as they were. The PS2 did this, the Wii did this, the DS and 3DS did this, even the Mega Drive did this. I think the first console to use emulation was the PS2 Slim.

    Anyway, this has the disadvantage of either driving up costs, or shackling you to old technology. Ideally, all backward compatibility should be pulled off like Microsoft did for the Xbox One - by using software emulation to allow for comaptibility with new peripherals and system features. However, it would be better if you could do that while also retaining 100% software compatibility. And I guess this would take a lot of work, both while you are making current-gen games and while you are designing the new console.

    Frankly, I'm still more annoyed that we have no info about PS1/2 compatibility. While it might still come, I'm not holding my breath at this point. You'd think that at least PS1 emulation should be easy enough for them. They have like a ton of old PS1 games on the store, only available for consoles that have all been discontinued at this point.

    Edited by Malek86 at 15:52:01 19-03-2020
  • ozthegweat 19 Mar 2020 16:06:32 2,401 posts
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    They could perhaps use some sort of a virtual machine/docker solution to achieve BC that is easier to implement. In fact, I vaguely remember something like that already being in use on the One (X).
  • Derblington 19 Mar 2020 16:06:57 32,705 posts
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    ozthegweat wrote:
    Derblington wrote:
    This is the first time itís being made available at launch in such a large capacity.
    I believe PS2 played all PSX games, and launch PS3s were able to play all PS2 games. So it's not unheard of.
    I was referring to MS offering 4 gen backwards there as you were comparing the PS5 to XBSX.

    My understanding is that they largely do ďjust workĒ but a couple of games may fall over due to the way they run. I would expect that to be pretty rare though, and to my understanding itís not any different to the way the Xbox handles it either due to the new archtecture improving older titles in subtle and unsubtle ways.
  • Ron_Justice 19 Mar 2020 16:13:29 3,185 posts
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    BC to anything other than the previous Gen, surely, is such a niche requirement that it doesn't really pay to invest too heavily in R&D.

    In the case of the MS ecosystem, l can see it makes sense to maintain their methodology - they already have deep BC, so building upon that will be relatively straight forward, but for Sony to introduce anything other than PS4 BC seems particularly fancy full.

    PS3 is renowned for its idiosyncrasies, so emulation, in an already cost pushed new gen, seems perfectly acceptable to forgo. I'd already accepted it was a lost cause when we got the PS4, seven years ago, I'm certainly not going to lament its loss now...

    As for PS1 and 2, realistically and beyond the niche of a niche that are retro fans, how many people still have a sizable collection of games? Again it seems pretty clear, from a business point of view that, for Sony, deep BC is only ever going to be a luxury that manifest for a very select number of games.
  • Malek86 19 Mar 2020 16:47:59 9,713 posts
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    Ron_Justice wrote:
    As for PS1 and 2, realistically and beyond the niche of a niche that are retro fans, how many people still have a sizable collection of games? Again it seems pretty clear, from a business point of view that, for Sony, deep BC is only ever going to be a luxury that manifest for a very select number of games.
    There must be a lot of people who bought PS1 games on the digital store, back when the PS3 and PSP were the only consoles around. And I don't think they changed their accounts in the meantime.

    But again, given how Sony treated the PS1 Classic, it's pretty obvious they don't care much. I understand why, but that doesn't mean I agree with them.
  • ibenam 19 Mar 2020 16:48:44 3,274 posts
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    I have no interest in playing older games on new consoles. Never saw the point of if so Sonys strategy sits fine with me.

    Im more interested in the price and whether it doesn't sound like a jet engine. Has any info come out on that?
  • Carlo 19 Mar 2020 16:49:39 21,013 posts
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    I have to agree, I like the idea of BC, but in all honesty, it's something that I almost never have time for.

    I have all the consoles, and a couple of the 'mini' consoles to scratch those itches, but I rarely do it (or for very long).

    This obsession with playing old games on new machines makes no sense (to me).
  • Ron_Justice 19 Mar 2020 16:50:49 3,185 posts
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    ibenam wrote:
    Im more interested in the price and whether it doesn't sound like a jet engine. Has any info come out on that?
    Nope
  • KD 19 Mar 2020 17:01:42 2,520 posts
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    I actually use BC often or have old console still playable, my 360 had some use last week playing Outrun and yesterday Fight Night Champion bc on a One. I skipped the PS4 so was hoping it was every game but doesnt mean I wont get the new console, it just might be delayed if I spot a cheap PS4 Pro and get wrapped up in that for a year.
  • MrAGSystems 19 Mar 2020 17:32:52 582 posts
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    I figure I've just rinsed the current gen since 2013, so I've very little inclination to go back to those games (bar stuff that has an "infinite" gameplay loop, like fighting games, rally games, shmups, etc).

    I'm not shitting on BC - it's nice to have for sure - but I'm buying a PS5 to play PS5 games.
  • IronGiant 19 Mar 2020 20:04:14 6,027 posts
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    I bought a PSClassic, had it Ďupgradedí and have hardly touched it. Same with my Ďretroí raspberry pi, loaded with games and hardly touch it. BC is a nice to have but itís far from a system seller.. with my huge backlog of games Iíll likely end up finishing some on my PS5 though ;)

    Sounds like both machines have great specs but games will end up looking nigh on identical. I canít see the new gen being any different to the current one, Sony has a handle on exclusives and a customer base that keeps growing. if anything, both Sony and MS will end up selling considerably less hardware.
  • Malek86 19 Mar 2020 21:11:05 9,713 posts
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    Yeah, I know for most people it's not that important. But there are always those two or three games that you will want to play again in the future, and if there's no remaster, you're screwed. Did anyone say Demon's Souls?...

    For me, the fact that Majin is not available on backward compatibility even on Xbox is still the greatest disappointment of this generation.

    Plus, it's not just about the games youa lready have. If you can support older games, you have more chances of discovering stuff you missed the first time around. I picked up and played quite a few 360 games since the X1 introduced the BC program.

    Overall though, if the PS5 supports all PS4 games, I think that will be enough for most.

    Edited by Malek86 at 21:18:02 19-03-2020
  • Carlo 19 Mar 2020 21:17:04 21,013 posts
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    Malek86 wrote:
    Yeah, I know for most people it's not that important. But there are always those two or three games that you will want to play again in the future, and if there's no remaster, you're screwed. Did anyone say Demon's Souls?...

    For me, the fact that Majin is not available on backward compatibility even on Xbox is still the greatest disappointment of this generation.

    Plus, if you can support older games, you have more chances of discovering stuff you missed the first time around. I picked up and played quite a few 360 games since the X1 introduced the BC program.
    No, we said emulators and old hardware :D
  • Calo64 19 Mar 2020 22:37:26 18 posts
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  • ozthegweat 19 Mar 2020 23:46:48 2,401 posts
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    wat
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