Joker

    First Previous
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 10:56:54 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    Maybe talk about it in here as I'd be getting pissed off with some of the spoilery stuff in the film thread if I hadn't seen it.
  • SuperSoupy 9 Oct 2019 10:57:31 107 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Good shout.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 11:07:56 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    The more I think about it the more I love that he's a completely unreliable narrator due to his psychosis. Like half of the shit we see didn't actually happen. I'm not even convinced he went on the talk show.
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 11:11:38 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    There are theories that teh entire film is a fabrication of his delusion. I'm not sold on that but the director is basically saying it's up for interpretation.
    He might be THE Joker, he might inspire the real Joker, some or all of it may never have occurred - you decide basically.

    Edited by Derblington at 11:12:14 09-10-2019
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 11:19:17 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    He is the Joker in the this film. I know you're struggling because it's a different interpretation of the character, but he is the Joker.
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 11:20:36 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    I'm not struggling, that's actually what the director has said.
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 11:22:53 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago

    “There’s a lot of ways you could look at this movie,” Phillips said. “You could look at it and go, ‘This is just one of his multiple-choice stories. None of it happened.’ I don’t want to say what it is. But a lot of people I’ve shown it to have said, ‘Oh, I get it — he’s just made up a story. The whole movie is the joke. It’s this thing this guy in Arkham Asylum concocted. He might not even be the Joker.’
    Maybe Joaquin’s character inspired the Joker,” Phillips said. “You don’t really know. His last line in the movie is, ‘You wouldn’t get it.’ There’s a lot going on in there that’s interesting.”
    There you go.

    ed: from here: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2019-10-04/joker-ending-explained-todd-phillips

    Edited by Derblington at 11:24:22 09-10-2019
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 11:23:12 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    He's said the real Joker may have been a copycat of the Joker in this film? When?
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 11:26:47 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    Well that would be an utterly shit take on it. That the actual Joker is a copycat killer would go completely against the character.
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 11:29:09 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    I think it's all largely related to the scene with the goon gunning down the Wayne family and leaving Bruce standing over them. Fleck is being pulled out of the cop car when this is playing out in the movie.
    But then in the asylum it's the scene that plays when he's laughing and says to the doctor that she wouldn't understand the joke. He wasn't there, he may not have ever been aware of it taking place the way it's shot, though maybe he read it later.
    I'm assuming, as it;s never really mentioned anywhere, that audiences are tying Napier killing the Waynes and Fleck not doing it, so the inspiring thing is coming up, but it's Phillips that mentions it here with no other origin and he's not willing to fill in any gaps.

    Edited by Derblington at 11:30:08 09-10-2019
  • Ultrasoundwave 9 Oct 2019 11:38:52 5,904 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Derblington wrote:
    the director is basically saying it's up for interpretation.
    He might be THE Joker, he might inspire the real Joker, some or all of it may never have occurred - you decide basically.
    Todd Phillips has said he will eventually say what’s really going on.

    However, I’ve got a theory that they will wait to see how much money it makes. If everything falls in line for a sequel to happen then there’s NO WAY they’ll say that a) None of it really happened and b) he isn’t the real joker, just someone random who inspired the joker
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 11:42:43 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    I really hope we don't get a sequel.
  • Mola_Ram 9 Oct 2019 11:44:38 21,494 posts
    Seen 53 seconds ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    I found the narrative pretty self-serving, in that basically everything Joker did was a result of other people being horrible to him. So it would make sense that large chunks of the movie are his own mind spinning off events that happened differently in reality.

    I don't think that take is true, but it would be cool if it was.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 11:50:44 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    I mean parts of the movie are 100% in his head, so it would stand to reason other stuff is as well.
  • JamboWayOh 9 Oct 2019 11:57:09 15,074 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    Decks wrote:
    The more I think about it the more I love that he's a completely unreliable narrator due to his psychosis. Like half of the shit we see didn't actually happen. I'm not even convinced he went on the talk show.
    The more I've thought about the movie the more I've thought that this may be a strong possibility. Like having his comedy show recorded, the Murray Show getting the tape and playing it, like his interactions with his next door neighbour it all seemed like something from an unreliable narrator.
  • SuperSoupy 9 Oct 2019 12:14:56 107 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    I don't want Todd Phillips going into any clarifications or reveals. Like the Joker refusing to know Batman's true identity, the mystery is more fun.

    I'm still wondering if he's Thomas Wayne's illegitimate son.

    Just because he found adoption papers doesn't necessarily prove that Thomas Wayne wasn't the father. If Arthur Fleck ever found that to be true, after killing his own mother partly for thinking she lied to him, it would cause a deeper spiral and would further contribute to his Joker-inducing madness. After all, there's still a good 12 years at least until 'true' Joker comes into the picture so there's certainly a deeper rabbit hole to fall into.

    It's almost a cheap shot to say 'interpret this your own way' when it comes to things like this. But because the film handles the psychological side of it so well, it totally works.
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 12:16:46 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    Decks wrote:
    I mean parts of the movie are 100% in his head, so it would stand to reason other stuff is as well.
    True, but it becomes an incredibly unreliable narrative for the viewer that we're explicitly shown things that are fabrications but left to fend for ourselves on the rest. If you're questioning what is real, should you question what isn't too? It gets messy.

    I think the movie is a bit more straightforward than the interpretations are creating.

    Edited by Derblington at 12:17:11 09-10-2019
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 12:26:08 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    Being able to interpret a film in different ways isn't "messy", it's called having depth. And we're only shown that the relationship with the neighbour is fabricated because he himself realises it.

    In a film about psychosis, when we're repeatedly seeing things that the main character is imagining, then nothing we see can be trusted to be real.

    There's also things that could be read as being ques to the fact he imagined the whole talkshow bit. The fact that he's constantly imagining being on there is a pretty big one. The fact that no-one comes in to stop him when he starts talking about the murders. The line "this is just like I imagined it".
  • Ultrasoundwave 9 Oct 2019 12:33:26 5,904 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    *SPOILERS AHEAD*




    The only reason I think it’s all real (especially the final scene) is because Joker says “You get what you fucking deserve!” when he kills Murray.....and the guy who kills the Wayne’s says the same thing because he saw joker say it on TV.

    The movie tells us that his relationship is fabricated, but it doesn’t tell us anything else is......so it would be a little bit of a ‘shit the bed’ moment to turn around and say “It was ALLLLLLL in his head!”
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 12:34:14 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    The interpretations aren't messy, but knowing what to trust is. We're explicitly shown fabrications, if there are more that we're not shown then how much of the narrative can we trust? The entire film becomes untrustworthy - is he having delusions within delusions? Are we being shown his realisations or are we being shown truths that he's not aware of?

    I'm not keen on the idea that the entire film is the imagination of a dude in a hospital, personally. Or even extravagant memories.
    The film does lay out specific things to the viewer, so I'd assume that they are truth - that the narrative shown to the viewer is accurate. There's still plenty of Flack's own manifestations present for that to be the case but still to have him be a loon, we're just being shown that's he's unreliable rather than the film itself is.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 12:42:13 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    It doesn't have to be "all in his head", but parts of it being manifestations of his psychosis is a very cool idea imo.

    I realised the relationship with the neighbour was in his head pretty quickly, mainly because she wasn't acting in a rational way. Everything felt off about it. I got the same feeling with the talkshow at the end. It didn't feel real.

    Therefore how do we know he isn't sitting in his apartment? Imagining this as he's been shown to do frequently. Maybe with the neighbours head in the fridge.

    It's what makes the concept that he's a completely unreliable narrator interesting to me.
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 12:43:40 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    Yeah, fair enough, I get it. I just think it's a bit more straightforward.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 12:47:55 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    It's as straight forward as you want to see it I guess.
  • nickthegun 9 Oct 2019 12:50:00 78,777 posts
    Seen 12 minutes ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Its one of the things that kind of makes me think it was a script that had the joker sellotaped onto it.

    The setup and escalation towards the end could have also then had him running faster than a train and jumping higher than the moon. Its just the wish fulfilment of a guy in a straightjacket and we haven't watched the origin of the Joker, we have watched a guy rambling about how shit is life is to a psychiatrist for two hours.
  • nickthegun 9 Oct 2019 12:50:25 78,777 posts
    Seen 12 minutes ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Which im absolutely fine with. DC needed movies like this.
  • Decks Best Forumite, 2016 9 Oct 2019 13:02:12 21,093 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    Thing is with the success of this they're apparently going to do standalones for other villians. Like who though? Have they got anywhere near as interesting a villian as the Joker in their catalogue?
  • mrpon 9 Oct 2019 13:05:06 35,465 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    Fingers crossed for Condiment King
  • nickthegun 9 Oct 2019 13:07:05 78,777 posts
    Seen 12 minutes ago
    Registered 14 years ago
    Well, Marvel showed that if the story is good enough, you can even get people to give a shit about Ant-Man, so that's all down to the talent, I suppose.

    The less well known the property, the more they can probably do with it. They could go to town on an EggHead origin story.
  • Derblington 9 Oct 2019 13:07:33 31,987 posts
    Seen 3 minutes ago
    Registered 15 years ago
    There are other interesting villains but not that don't lean more toward fantasy, and Joker really works because it's just anarchy embodied - he could be anyone in that sense.

    Edited by Derblington at 13:07:52 09-10-2019
  • challenge_hanukkah 9 Oct 2019 13:08:23 11,291 posts
    Seen 7 minutes ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    Kancer
  • First Previous
Log in or register to reply

Sometimes posts may contain links to online retail stores. If you click on one and make a purchase we may receive a small commission. For more information, go here.