The 52% Thread Page 5

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  • Samildanach 24 Oct 2019 19:19:47 394 posts
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    Pretty much everybody in this country, including politicians, don't really know what our country would be like in years to come whether we leave or not. It isn't easy to predict even without Brexit due to unforseen global and local circumstances changing things.
    Since we all don't really know what will happen, we can't ever really decide what is the right answer to Brexit until it has already happened. Thus people have to go with how they feel, and that leads to the much more personal side of things in the Brexit debate that gets many riled up. It becomes an attack on who you are because your stance is so much built from how perceive what Brexit is about and therefore the opposing side must (usually assumed incorrectly) hold the opposite beliefs.
    A referendum would still be rather closely split I suspect, as we all still don't know what would happen; and if Remain won slightly, there would be a lot of anger from the other camp who would then perceive it as an attack on who they are.
    (I voted Remain, but think we probably will all be happier with each other if a deal was agreed and we can become less polarised and move on.)

    Edited by Samildanach at 23:12:11 24-10-2019
  • KnuttinAtoll 24 Oct 2019 19:24:16 8,196 posts
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    alt-cmd-esc wrote:
    Posted this in the Politics thread weeks ago, but still seems relevant and eminently ignorable, as was the case when I first posted it ;)

    "It seems to me that, here in the UK at least, we've been going through two parallel divorce proceedings for the last 3 years - both in terms of our relationship with the EU (and, by connection, with Europe itself), and also internally with regards to those supporting leaving the EU, and those wanting to remain. There's a very good chance we'll end up staying in the EU, but both parties are going to need to remain aware just how close the relationship was to ending and address some of the issues that got us into that situation.

    And in terms of our country, whichever way things pan out, the depressing feeling for me is that we're just going to be stuck in some eternal internal divorce proceeding, with neither party actually able to move out and make the split, as we're all stuck here living together. Tribalism and triumphalism on both sides does nothing to help the situation, but it seems to be the primary language of both positions. We are a couple that, frankly, needs their heads banging together."

    /Relate
    On your first paragraph, it sounds like both sides are equally to blame for Brexit. Please correct me if I misunderstood.

    What would you propose the EU should do, as a lesson learned from this? Bend over even more than it did already? Let the UK become defacto leader who calls the shots?

    And if anyone is to be blamed for Brexit then it's the UK and noone else. And those endless threats of leaving or else... I think the EU is at the point where it can't wait the UK actually follow up on them.

    Edited by KnuttinAtoll at 19:26:39 24-10-2019
  • THFourteen 24 Oct 2019 22:52:50 53,839 posts
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    Frogofdoom wrote:
    Maybe that's because you and your family are well off enough to swallow a 2k a year per person loss to your income TH14. People are angry because they are about to get their lives fucked up through no fault of their own.

    But you already know that and are just after a rise.
    Youíre actually agreeing with me by playing the ďyou donít know what itís likeĒ card. Maybe my family can swallow 2k a year and we donít know what itís like to miss that 2k. Similarly you may not know what itís like to be a white English cleaner in the north of England who has lost their job because EU immigrants have moved into your town and now do the same job as you for £3 an hour cheaper.

    We can all play the you donít know what itís like card and essentially thatís the whole point, people have lost the ability to empathise.

    And before anyone jumps in of course my example is made up as I donít know what itís like to be in that persons shoes or if that person even exists.
  • ResidentKnievel 24 Oct 2019 22:57:22 7,428 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:

    And before anyone jumps in of course my example is made up as I donít know what itís like to be in that persons shoes or if that person even exists.
    So what point are you making if it's all bollocks?
  • THFourteen 24 Oct 2019 22:57:59 53,839 posts
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    ResidentKnievel wrote:
    THFourteen wrote:

    And before anyone jumps in of course my example is made up as I donít know what itís like to be in that persons shoes or if that person even exists.
    So what point are you making if it's all bollocks?
    My point is you donít know.
  • IMO 24 Oct 2019 23:27:49 7,346 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    Maybe my family can swallow 2k a year and we donít know what itís like to miss that 2k. Similarly you may not know what itís like to be a white English cleaner in the north of England who has lost their job because EU immigrants have moved into your town and now do the same job as you for £3 an hour cheaper.
    I get that this is a made-up example, but it certainly rings true for some of the arguments I have seen for Brexit - the problem, as ever, is that it is far more nuanced than "Immigrants come in == wages driven down".

    If someone is willing to do a job for less than you, surely thats always going to be an issue regardless of where they come from? What makes the fact they are immigrants a problem?

    It's often alluded to as immigrants from poorer European countries coming in and accepting a lower standard of living as it is still an improvement on what they get back home. That being the case, why are people still allowed to get away with paying others so little that they can't expect a reasonable standard of living? Along with countless other questions and complexities.

    It's difficult to boil that sort of nuance down to 140 characters, so no-one bothered. It's much easier just to blame those who can't defend themselves.
  • thelzdking 25 Oct 2019 01:02:11 10,183 posts
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    Is TH trying (albeit very poorly) to tell us that everyone needs to stop being so tribal and unite and work towards a common future?
  • rice_sandwich 25 Oct 2019 05:59:20 6,511 posts
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    Brexit is merely (partially / mostly?) the symptom of a decades long malady of inequality and under investment that has affected certain parts of the UK's four regions much more than others. I doubt many folk who voted leave are actually truly that bothered about the EU, perhaps they just want a seismic change due to life being generally crap and see it as a once in a lifetime opportunity. I'm sure some are racists / xenophobes etc. but many just want massive change and don't care about the economics and want to stick it to the useless politicians.

    If you've very little to lose then I suppose you've little to fear from Brexit as life is so bad anyway. You expect life to be bad. Or maybe it just feels amazing to stick it to those who live in a middle class London bubble. If you can't rise up then bringing others down has got to feel fantastic. If Brexit is the only real chance of massive change I can see why many people want it and don't care about the economics. They should probably campaign for PR voting but Brexit is a bigger and louder vehicle for (very uncertain) change.

    While I agree Brexit is not a good move at all I am not impressed by the quality of the debate in the media. The Guardian froths at the mouth at every opportunity. They have good points to make at times but many of their articles and below the line comments are cringe worthy. Looks like their employees have absolutely everything to lose as they are from a class who are able to take full advantage of EU benefits.

    Inadvertent 'benefits' of Brexit could be the end of fptp voting and a united Ireland and Independent Scotland. I'd take independence and a whole new set of problems over being stuck in a never ending nightmare that to me, seems to be a largely English problem at its core.

    I cannot understand why anyone would vote for the Tories. Up here in Scotland they are completely toxic and come with a lot of baggage. It would be socially embarrassing to admit to voting for them - basically saying you're totally selfish and love money more than anything. I get small state and everyone working by their own efforts but that way of thinking seems to have gone far too far. I guess we have different social values. A refusal to understand the core of others' concerns, even if poorly or even wrongly articulated, or appearing to come from darker places cannot end well. We are all in it together (until we're not re independence etc.) and need to realise it,

    Edited by rice_sandwich at 06:00:32 25-10-2019
  • alt-cmd-esc 25 Oct 2019 08:11:20 508 posts
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    KnuttinAtoll wrote:
    alt-cmd-esc wrote:
    Posted this in the Politics thread weeks ago, but still seems relevant and eminently ignorable, as was the case when I first posted it ;)

    "It seems to me that, here in the UK at least, we've been going through two parallel divorce proceedings for the last 3 years - both in terms of our relationship with the EU (and, by connection, with Europe itself), and also internally with regards to those supporting leaving the EU, and those wanting to remain. There's a very good chance we'll end up staying in the EU, but both parties are going to need to remain aware just how close the relationship was to ending and address some of the issues that got us into that situation.

    And in terms of our country, whichever way things pan out, the depressing feeling for me is that we're just going to be stuck in some eternal internal divorce proceeding, with neither party actually able to move out and make the split, as we're all stuck here living together. Tribalism and triumphalism on both sides does nothing to help the situation, but it seems to be the primary language of both positions. We are a couple that, frankly, needs their heads banging together."

    /Relate
    On your first paragraph, it sounds like both sides are equally to blame for Brexit. Please correct me if I misunderstood.

    What would you propose the EU should do, as a lesson learned from this? Bend over even more than it did already? Let the UK become defacto leader who calls the shots?

    And if anyone is to be blamed for Brexit then it's the UK and noone else. And those endless threats of leaving or else... I think the EU is at the point where it can't wait the UK actually follow up on them.
    Of course both sides are to blame and the point I am trying to make is that it is counterproductive to maintain otherwise, and does nothing to help the current situation. Both the Remain and Leave campaigns prior to the referendum were frankly shit - the leave stuff is obvious, but remainís focus on financial doom rather than any benefits of membership was a huge mistake, as was wheeling out celebrities and the likes of Tony Blair and Bob Geldof as their cheerleaders. Farage is a loathsome toad, for sure, but Blair makes him look like an amateur on that front.

    Equally, the EU should similarly place emphasis beyond economics as the benefits of membership, acknowledge that business interests have too much sway in Brussels (cf Guy Verhofstadtís cv as an example), and that there are considerable numbers of (usually working class) citizens in member countries (not just the UK), who are unhappy with EU membership and feel they are not represented. Or perhaps you think they should just ignore this?
  • Load_2.0 25 Oct 2019 08:54:53 32,060 posts
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    Post deleted
  • KnuttinAtoll 25 Oct 2019 08:58:00 8,196 posts
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    @alt-cmd-esc I honestly don't understand where you're getting the idea from that the EU is emphasising on economics only - that's actually the UK's position which I consider part of the problem.

    I do agree that the EU could do a better job of promoting itself, but then others will see that as propaganda.

    I recommend visiting the EU parlamentarium in Brussels, an excellent showcase and history lesson of the EU (free of charge as well).

    As for other EU citizens being unhappy with the EU - pretty much the same reason as in the UK - mostly based on lies or misrepresentations slung by extremist politicians trying to get to power, and xenophobia.
  • Load_2.0 25 Oct 2019 08:59:56 32,060 posts
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    The idea that we can isolate ourselves and create some bubble where we reopen the steel production industry or where window washers get paid great salaries are fantasy.

    For better or worse it's world of international trade, immigration and automation. Willy the window washer should be more worried about a machine doing his job at a fraction of the price than another human.

    Leaving the EU isn't going to help anyone. It's going to devastate small towns.

    The auto industry is already out. Wait till we leave and watch agriculture and manufacturing die.
  • DamoVotf 25 Oct 2019 11:17:04 1,465 posts
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    Post deleted
  • pacrifice 25 Oct 2019 11:42:41 5,248 posts
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    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sony.nfx.app.sfrc

    News suite by Sony.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.magazines

    Google news.


    Install these apps and you'll get news reports from all the UK and foreign media. You're one of my favourite posters, ditch the Daily Mail my brother.
  • Deleted user 25 October 2019 11:44:54
    THFourteen wrote:

    And before anyone jumps in of course my example is made up as I donít know what itís like to be in that persons shoes or if that person even exists.
    Lol.

    This is what reading the DM 'just for laughs' does to your brain.
  • Mr_Sleep 25 Oct 2019 11:46:45 23,490 posts
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    A much better method is to ignore the British media almost entirely.
  • pacrifice 25 Oct 2019 11:46:51 5,248 posts
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    And y'know, that France24NewsEnglish channel is really good. Actual interviews, no interruptions, no bias.
  • JamboWayOh 25 Oct 2019 11:47:15 20,717 posts
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    pacrifice wrote:
    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sony.nfx.app.sfrc

    News suite by Sony.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.magazines

    Google news.


    Install these apps and you'll get news reports from all the UK and foreign media. You're one of my favourite posters, ditch the Daily Mail my brother.
    He reads the Mail because it's amusing, not because he agrees with its horrible, horrible opinions. Nope, it's all for the lolz.
  • KnuttinAtoll 25 Oct 2019 14:28:51 8,196 posts
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    JamboWayOh wrote:
    pacrifice wrote:
    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sony.nfx.app.sfrc

    News suite by Sony.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.magazines

    Google news.


    Install these apps and you'll get news reports from all the UK and foreign media. You're one of my favourite posters, ditch the Daily Mail my brother.
    He reads the Mail because it's amusing, not because he agrees with its horrible, horrible opinions. Nope, it's all for the lolz.
    The Express is the new Onion, amirite.

    Not sure about Google news - don't they slice and dice news based on your browsing habits. You're better off going for original news sources rather than these aggregation sites/apps (or whatever you call them). May as well source your news from Facebook then.
  • pacrifice 25 Oct 2019 15:51:29 5,248 posts
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    I think The Independent is the best news source. We can configure the app to exclude certain news sources, daily mail and express are on that list.

    It's decent but wish they'd do a proper a dark mode night mode amoled. Twitter's been updated, it's looking slick.
  • THFourteen 25 Oct 2019 15:57:42 53,839 posts
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    JamboWayOh wrote:
    pacrifice wrote:
    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sony.nfx.app.sfrc

    News suite by Sony.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.magazines

    Google news.


    Install these apps and you'll get news reports from all the UK and foreign media. You're one of my favourite posters, ditch the Daily Mail my brother.
    He reads the Mail because it's amusing, not because he agrees with its horrible, horrible opinions. Nope, it's all for the lolz.
    You are horrible, horrible too. But i still read your posts.
  • JamboWayOh 25 Oct 2019 15:58:38 20,717 posts
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    Excellent.
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