The 52% Thread Page 3

  • disusedgenius 24 Oct 2019 13:24:56 10,432 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    but not because i believe anything in there
    lol

    Sure thing buddy
  • fontgeeksogood 24 Oct 2019 13:28:15 9,523 posts
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    The problem is one of entitlement, and the assumption that points of views should inherently be equal.

    But that doesn't work if you have one person who says the moon's crust is comprised of elements including silicon, iron and calcium, and another saying it is cheese
  • nickthegun 24 Oct 2019 13:32:22 81,385 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    @DamoVotf

    But i doubt you will get that either. I'm happy to be proven wrong. It'll just be 50/50 again.
    Only if they re-ran the same referendum, which would be weapons grade idiocy and one of the reasons we are in this mess.

    Having 'leave' as the singular, vague option means it's completely open to 'thats not what people voted for' weaponisation. Leave has now been twisted into 'no deal' but people were promised a soft Brexit, a hard brexit, a medium brexit, Norway plus, Canada plus and the 17m we never stop fucking hearing about all voted for different outcomes within that singular choice.

    That's why we need a second referendum, one that hasn't been created by a moron and contains more nuanced options than 'YES/NO'.

    Edited by nickthegun at 13:37:32 24-10-2019
  • DamoVotf 24 Oct 2019 13:34:35 1,465 posts
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    Post deleted
  • sport 24 Oct 2019 13:35:04 15,889 posts
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    YES
  • sport 24 Oct 2019 13:35:44 15,889 posts
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    NO
  • nickthegun 24 Oct 2019 13:35:46 81,385 posts
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    NO
  • nickthegun 24 Oct 2019 13:36:05 81,385 posts
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    Ooh, 66/33. Motion carried.
  • RichDC 24 Oct 2019 13:36:43 8,817 posts
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    A second referendum could (or at least should) only be Remain v Approved Government Deal. No room for a catastrophic No Deal option or an undefined Other.
  • sport 24 Oct 2019 13:36:45 15,889 posts
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    UNLOCK
  • DamoVotf 24 Oct 2019 13:38:31 1,465 posts
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    RichDC wrote:
    A second referendum could (or at least should) only be Remain v Approved Government Deal. No room for a catastrophic No Deal option or an undefined Other.
    Well it was put forward, that it should be leave / remain, and if leave wins, deal / no deal.

    Technically its the fairest way. Funny though, if it was leave id probably vote no deal.
  • rice_sandwich 24 Oct 2019 13:40:49 6,426 posts
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    It's fair to say that both sides of the Brexit debate, from what I've generally read online, tend to descend into nasty or condescending echo chambers that allow little respect to opposing views and no space for nuance.

    I can't think of any economic benefits to Brexit but I'm sure that there are a range of fair and reasonable objections that some people may have in relation to the political structure, aims and goals of the EU, the nature of ever closer political union, and the current expression of the EUs economic and political values etc. Maybe they should be doing a lot better than they are. Who knows?

    However, having those views and understanding the implications likely involves a deep understanding of politics, economics and philosophy and what have you.

    It's a bit like the arguments over big / small government, high / low tax etc. There's no right answer and it depends on how you frame the arguments....is the economy the thing that matters most or are social issues just as important? Depends who you ask and what their inherent biases and privileges are. It's hard to see those in ourselves.

    It's a hugely complex, multi faceted issue that should be allowed nuanced debate rather than the
    simplified 52/48, we won you lost v corrupt referendum sound bites that we see.

    On the whole, from a sketchy understanding of how it works, the EU is largely a good thing. Yet, again from a sketchy understanding, it does look ripe for reform and I'm not sure I'm fully on board with what might be said to be a neoliberal agenda in some respects.

    EU: Recommended for most users who espouse non-extremist political views although it needs a few patches to iron out a variety of non-trivial performance issues.
  • Graxlar_v3 24 Oct 2019 13:40:55 9,933 posts
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    DamoVotf wrote:
    RichDC wrote:
    A second referendum could (or at least should) only be Remain v Approved Government Deal. No room for a catastrophic No Deal option or an undefined Other.
    Well it was put forward, that it should be leave / remain, and if leave wins, deal / no deal.

    Technically its the fairest way. Funny though, if it was leave id probably vote no deal.
    You could argue that they have done the first referendum already, so then remain should not be included.
  • fontgeeksogood 24 Oct 2019 13:41:12 9,523 posts
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    Referendums got you into this, more of them don't get you out.

    A government with the backbone and no ulterior motives to make the right decision for the country is the answer
  • Graxlar_v3 24 Oct 2019 13:42:02 9,933 posts
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    fontgeeksogood wrote:
    Referendums got you into this, more of them don't get you out.

    A government with the backbone and no ulterior motives to make the right decision for the country is the answer
    Lemmie know when you find one pls.
  • sport 24 Oct 2019 13:42:27 15,889 posts
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    We're in a hole, we'll just have to dig ourselves out!
  • KnuttinAtoll 24 Oct 2019 13:42:55 8,107 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    OK serious face on then just for you.

    I am actually a Daily Mail reader, i read it every day, but not because i believe anything in there, i just find it quite amusing.

    What i don't like is how people (usually those with left wing views and especially on this forum) treat others with different views in contempt and look down upon them, and cannot even begin to empathise with someone who thinks differently, or in fact they dont even WANT to empathise with those people.

    It's like unless you think exactly the same way as i do, then you are beneath me, and i know whats good for you, and whats more i am going to tell you about how much better than you i am.

    I dont think those types of people are any better than racists, and yeah posting daily mail links to wind them up actually amuses me.
    If someone continues to be wilfully ignorant of well founded arguments and facts presented to them and/or has hateful views (not always mutually exclusive Brexiteer traits) they don't deserve my empathy. People with open minds who can admit making mistakes are a completely different matter of course.

    We're not talking about religion here, you know (even though that's how it feels like now with Brexit, and Trump).

    And about the Daily Heil - I would think it stops being funny when the hate it spreads becomes public opinion and even worse, government policy.

    Black Mirror The Waldo Moment springs to mind.

    Edited by KnuttinAtoll at 13:44:12 24-10-2019
  • Rivuzu 24 Oct 2019 13:44:18 18,378 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    I wanted somewhere that people could be free to voice opinions without being jumped on.
    Wrong forum then tbh.
  • KnuttinAtoll 24 Oct 2019 13:44:56 8,107 posts
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    sport wrote:
    UNLOCK
    AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWDAAAAAAAAAAAHHH
  • Graxlar_v3 24 Oct 2019 13:45:07 9,933 posts
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    Honestly, this recent cultural shift where you find yourself being stuck in a pot and judged is very tiring.
  • disusedgenius 24 Oct 2019 13:48:11 10,432 posts
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    You're saying that as if we haven't been calling Mail and Sun readers cunts for over a decade.
  • RelaxedMikki 24 Oct 2019 13:53:37 3,214 posts
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    Humans have a really strong instinct to divide each other into "us" (safe and to be protected) and "them" (not to be trusted, potentially dangerous).

    It is a survival instinct, no doubt, but it really gets in the way of rationality. I even see it at work where people are always assuming "they" will do things wrong and then blame "us"...
  • Deleted user 24 October 2019 13:53:59
    Rivuzu wrote:
    THFourteen wrote:
    I wanted somewhere that people could be free to voice opinions without being jumped on.
    Wrong forum then tbh.
    Yep, especially politics related threads. The hive mind takes no prisoners. New users should test the waters in the joker film thread before confronting the mob in politics.
  • KnuttinAtoll 24 Oct 2019 14:02:27 8,107 posts
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    rice_sandwich wrote:
    It's fair to say that both sides of the Brexit debate, from what I've generally read online, tend to descend into nasty or condescending echo chambers that allow little respect to opposing views and no space for nuance.

    I can't think of any economic benefits to Brexit but I'm sure that there are a range of fair and reasonable objections that some people may have in relation to the political structure, aims and goals of the EU, the nature of ever closer political union, and the current expression of the EUs economic and political values etc. Maybe they should be doing a lot better than they are. Who knows?

    However, having those views and understanding the implications likely involves a deep understanding of politics, economics and philosophy and what have you.

    It's a bit like the arguments over big / small government, high / low tax etc. There's no right answer and it depends on how you frame the arguments....is the economy the thing that matters most or are social issues just as important? Depends who you ask and what their inherent biases and privileges are. It's hard to see those in ourselves.

    It's a hugely complex, multi faceted issue that should be allowed nuanced debate rather than the
    simplified 52/48, we won you lost v corrupt referendum sound bites that we see.

    On the whole, from a sketchy understanding of how it works, the EU is largely a good thing. Yet, again from a sketchy understanding, it does look ripe for reform and I'm not sure I'm fully on board with what might be said to be a neoliberal agenda in some respects.

    EU: Recommended for most users who espouse non-extremist political views although it needs a few patches to iron out a variety of non-trivial performance issues.
    I understand the anger Remainers have - they have rights actually taken away from them and they know it. Their anger is justified.

    Brexiteer anger (at the EU) is completely misplaced so I consider it baseless from a pure Brexit (but not domestic policy!) standpoint.

    As for the old "what has the EU ever done for us" / "what good is it" argument - it's pretty clear that a large number (including Remainers) have a rather 'meh' feeling about the EU, without being able to voice specific concerns about it. It's stuff that gets bandied around in the press - "EU ARMY!" - "EVER CLOSER UNION!" are two main talking points.

    But what is wrong with either? In the current global political environment smaller countries (and yes, the UK, Germany & France are small countries - not to mention rEU nations) need to team up together to stand up to the big bullies US / China / Russia. The nation state notion is really old fashioned and not fit for purpose anymore.

    But since the referendum in particular (I knew the UK was a bit up its own behind before, but didn't realise by how much until I moved there) I've realised the attitude of superiority & exceptionalism (why else would you think you can go it alone? or feel like you deserve special treatment?) I've gotten from many British people (TV, internet, in person) doesn't gel well with the concept of the EU so it is better for both sides to go separate ways, at least until population/culture in the UK changes (if it ever does). And when the UK rejoins, it will have to be on even terms, no more special cake thank you.

    Edited by KnuttinAtoll at 14:05:48 24-10-2019
  • Graxlar_v3 24 Oct 2019 14:04:53 9,933 posts
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    Addy__ wrote:
    Rivuzu wrote:
    THFourteen wrote:
    I wanted somewhere that people could be free to voice opinions without being jumped on.
    Wrong forum then tbh.
    Yep, especially politics related threads. The hive mind takes no prisoners. New users should test the waters in the joker film thread before confronting the mob in politics.
    I disagree honestly, I feel like this forum allows many different positions on the political spectrum. I am right of kal for instance but not as right as TH.

    I think the hive mind collective only really buzzes when the extremes pop their head up and start to declare that they are the true voice of reason. granted that is only on normal politics, when it comes to Brexit, people have fallen into a trap of us and them which may need reevaluating.
  • DamoVotf 24 Oct 2019 14:05:59 1,465 posts
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    Post deleted
  • KnuttinAtoll 24 Oct 2019 14:07:53 8,107 posts
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    its-H1ggyLTD wrote:
    What's wrong with a European Army!

    Would you like to know more?
    European armies not fighting each other, again?

    Case in point:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39472207

    Next please.

    Edited by KnuttinAtoll at 14:12:07 24-10-2019
  • Darth_Flibble 24 Oct 2019 14:10:53 4,198 posts
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    A second referendum will not be 50/50 or 51/49 to Leave, its something leavers say as they really don't want second referendum as they know people are pissed off with brexit and can now see its not "project fear" anymore. So they say "how many referendums when you lose again!!!!" (normally punching the keyboard)
  • JamboWayOh 24 Oct 2019 14:12:46 18,852 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    OK serious face on then just for you.

    I am actually a Daily Mail reader, i read it every day, but not because i believe anything in there, i just find it quite amusing.

    What i don't like is how people (usually those with left wing views and especially on this forum) treat others with different views in contempt and look down upon them, and cannot even begin to empathise with someone who thinks differently, or in fact they dont even WANT to empathise with those people.

    It's like unless you think exactly the same way as i do, then you are beneath me, and i know whats good for you, and whats more i am going to tell you about how much better than you i am.

    I dont think those types of people are any better than racists, and yeah posting daily mail links to wind them up actually amuses me.

    THFourteen wrote:
    Glad that guy got the shit kicked out of him. Fucking wasters. Where are the gammons when you need them

    THFourteen wrote:
    I donít empathise with these people. They are all jokers on their mobile phones and 4G and social
    Media and not a job between them. How do they think those advances in technology happened?

    Why donít they take one for the team and go live in the woods and ditch all their modern conveniences if they care that much.

    EMPATHY

    Edited by JamboWayOh at 14:13:20 24-10-2019
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