The Last of Us 2 SPOILER DISCUSSION. Page 7

  • eshy76 2 Jul 2020 13:27:27 190 posts
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    Can you imagine if they'd given us control of Abby when she was holding the 5-iron? The internet would literally have melted!
  • Rogueywon Most Generous Forumite, 2016 2 Jul 2020 13:32:44 9,030 posts
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    eshy76 wrote:
    Can you imagine if they'd given us control of Abby when she was holding the 5-iron? The internet would literally have melted!
    I'd be up for it. :)

    Edit: Though I might have wanted a choice of clubs. Maybe the option to soften things up a bit with a sand wedge, before graduating to the 5-iron and then finishing off with a driver.

    Edited by Rogueywon at 13:39:49 02-07-2020
  • waggy79 2 Jul 2020 13:41:53 2,302 posts
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    Yeah think I would've refunded at that point lol.
    I thought the dino museum was one of the best bits personally.
    The first time I remember them doing this was in the remote mountain village in Uncharted 2 where you just walk and talk. Provides some respite from the action and I enjoy them.
    Not so much on repeat playthrough though I'll give you that.
  • Bichii 2 Jul 2020 13:41:59 3,179 posts
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    Oh I found a way to make the combat total carnage. I was playing on survivor+ but got to the bit Vs the scars where there is a school bus you can go through and a sniper (bit just before they capture you) and I was losing my shit as I was dying too much and it was ruining the fun. So I've kept it all on survivor except put my health to moderate difficulty and ammo supply to very light. Makes each encounter epic as the enemy are very aggressive and I have loads of ammo. :).
  • LFace 2 Jul 2020 13:45:33 105 posts
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    Can't believe some chump has rated the game after watching a streamer play it online. Thats some next level bullshittery right there.

    Imagine rating how food tastes because you watched someone eat a meal.
    This deadpool fellow seems to be getting dumber by the minute, I've never seen anything quite like it.
  • ZuluHero 2 Jul 2020 14:08:08 8,931 posts
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    @Bichii how on earth have you found the time to play this twice. Don't you have loads of kids?
  • ZuluHero 2 Jul 2020 14:09:21 8,931 posts
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    eshy76 wrote:
    Can you imagine if they'd given us control of Abby when she was holding the 5-iron? The internet would literally have melted!
    If it took me back to that scene at the end, I would have been game.
  • Bichii 2 Jul 2020 14:14:28 3,179 posts
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    @ZuluHero three and I have them 50/50 so outside of my shifts I have plenty of me time.
  • Raiftel 2 Jul 2020 14:17:23 235 posts
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    I'm really torn on this;

    On one hand I love that it follows on from the consequences of TLOU. I literally walked away from the first game so furious at what Joel had chosen to do, and I like the game reckons with that. That Joel's choice was selfish, and myopic.

    But I just couldn't click with the theme of the game because I understand that violence and vengeance are ultimately hollow, but the theme is CONSTANTLY interrupted and subverted by the combat and how aggresive and brutal it is. It's the GTA IV problem all over again where Nico wants to renounce violence, but all the game has to offer is violence.

    I'd feel more bad about Ellie's slaughter if I had some control over it. But unless I simply stop playing I can't control or engage with the theme. Essentially without even an illusion of choice, the attempts at complicity really wound me up.

    Because I don't believe in the world they created, I don't believe in those cycles of violence, I'm not myopic enough to accept the savagery of humanity I see in every post-apocalyptic fiction, because I know that people work together, that solidarity exists and will exist and it just feels so aggravating to navigate these impotent nihilistic power fantasies and then have the game accuse me of complicity in those things. /rant
  • WrongShui 2 Jul 2020 14:27:03 6,819 posts
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    Raiftel wrote:I'm not myopic enough to accept the savagery of humanity I see in every post-apocalyptic fiction, because I know that people work together, that solidarity exists and will exist
    I used to think this, but then you see how the states is handing things at the mo and shows like doomsday preppers and what not and now I'm not so sure.

    So instead I like to think the rest of the world is getting along much better in these apocalypses, looking in horror at the savagery the states has descended into, makes it more believable for me.
  • Switch-v85 2 Jul 2020 14:45:18 3,915 posts
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    Humanity has done some terrible shit, you don’t have to look far to see just how bad people can be.

    I’m sure communities would form and people would band together, but I can totally see the opposite of that happening too.
  • eshy76 2 Jul 2020 15:20:21 190 posts
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    Rogueywon wrote:
    eshy76 wrote:
    Can you imagine if they'd given us control of Abby when she was holding the 5-iron? The internet would literally have melted!
    I'd be up for it. :)

    Edit: Though I might have wanted a choice of clubs. Maybe the option to soften things up a bit with a sand wedge, before graduating to the 5-iron and then finishing off with a driver.
    I was going to write 3-iron, but then, on reflection it seemed the club she was holding was more substantial, though not that lofted...so 5-iron.

    Your edit is like the inverse of playing a golf hole...but yeah, this wasn't golf!
  • eshy76 2 Jul 2020 15:31:00 190 posts
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    ZuluHero wrote:
    eshy76 wrote:
    Can you imagine if they'd given us control of Abby when she was holding the 5-iron? The internet would literally have melted!
    If it took me back to that scene at the end, I would have been game.
    Gasp! Two temporal cliffhanger points (well three, including Santa Barbara)! We'd be getting close to Inception levels then!
  • muddyyfunster 2 Jul 2020 16:31:15 141 posts
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    Finished last night. Great game but was well ready for the end by the time it came.

    Overall it gave me what I wanted which was another well-written adventure in a beautiful created post-apocalyptic world. I thought the combat was great, especially against the human enemies, and really enjoyed mixing up different approaches to the combat.

    Whilst I thought it was excellent, it just wasn't quite as enjoyable as the first which was a classic. On reflection I think this was due to several factors:

    1) a revenge mission just fundamentally isn't as easy to get on board with as an epic road trip to save humanity. I just didn't hate Abby as I was apparently supposed to after the start because a) it was obvious that she had a motive that would later become clear and b) Joel was no saint. So whilst I enjoyed the ride, I wasn't alligned with Ellie's motivations. Abby's made much more sense, but again, not quite enough to be truly sympathetic and ultimately I wasn't as invested in their stories as I was in TLOU.

    2) I'm no great fan of horror games and although I can enjoy the occasional scary bit, mostly I endure those bits to get to the next plot point. I think TLOU2 overdid these sections this time around. A few times I entered an area, and just thought oh ffs, again? It got too oppresive at times, not helped by the rain and extreme violence and a few times I had to switch it off for a break.

    3) One of the best things about the original was Joel and Ellie'e relationship and the development over the course of the game. It was almost perfect. Again I thought the characterisation here was great but because you never spent that much time with two characters there wasn't the same emotional pull. Dina, Manny, Tommy all had potential but none were around long enough and there wasn't the same nuance. I actually thought the sections with Abby and Lev were some of the strongest because they had a more interesting dynamic.

    4) Most of the more relaxed bits were flashbacks and whilst they were great, they had no optimism as you knew what came next so they didn't lighten the mood in the way they did in the original. Nonetheless my favourite section was the space museum, really beautifully done.

    5) The ludonarrative disonance was still present, if not even worse than before. I thought it was brave that Naughty Dog wanted to show the consequences of the killing and giving henchmen names and showing the other side was novel. However by never giving the player the option to avoid murder it lost it's power. I never actively chose to kill whilst in control, therefore I didn't personally feel bad like they intended. To start with I had just about accepted that it was 'kill or be killed' as the WLF opened fire first, but increasingly it became mindless needless murder. Furthermore the characters never seemed as affected as they should have been by their actions (if that was supposed to be the message). All of them should have been utterly traumatised and dehumanised if they were going to be consistent. By Abby's day 3 I just kept thinking you've suffered THE worst, most horrific 48hrs in the history of mankind, how are you not broken?

    I'd like to see another sequel for the PS5, but this time make it a bit less bleak. We know violence is bad and humans are awful, but give us a bit of hope and some options. Personally I'd like them to follow Abby or Lev and the Fire Flies and the search for the cure. A quest to find Ellie and persuade her to sacrifice herself, or even Ellie taking the iniative and seeking a surgeon as a redemption arc would both be nice directions to take things.

    Edited by muddyyfunster at 16:39:39 02-07-2020

    Edited by muddyyfunster at 16:40:48 02-07-2020
  • Bichii 2 Jul 2020 19:12:53 3,179 posts
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    Just got to Santa Barbara. Yeah I definitely think they game would be better if Abby's part of the game was cut in half. It has some of the best moments of the game, the hospital boss, the sniper bridge, the climax of the island etc but it just feels so much better when you are Ellie. The new group of characters in the wlf's are all good characters but it's not the same quality as Ellie, Jesse, Dina,
    and Tommy.
  • Jmek 2 Jul 2020 21:30:20 1,549 posts
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    Started a new game + on survivor + difficulty. I thought it was far easier than I expected. That was until I reached the WFL patrols with the dogs!

    Fido is not friendly!
  • Bichii 2 Jul 2020 21:31:43 3,179 posts
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    @Jmek oh it jumps up again later.... pretty much the whole of abbys story is nails compared to Ellie's.
  • PierrePressure 2 Jul 2020 22:22:44 1,113 posts
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    Can anyone tell me what the song is playing on the stereo when Abbie gets into the aquarium?
  • ZuluHero 2 Jul 2020 23:35:43 8,931 posts
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    If they cut Ellie's in half too that would have paced the whole game better. It had some stand out bits, the 'open world' bit, the museum, the car escape, but there is too much padding in both sides.

    I preferred Abby's side more, even though I was angry with her before understanding her reasons and motives. She's also a more nuanced character then Ellie, who only really flips between pouty teen and psychopathic revenge.
  • ZuluHero 3 Jul 2020 09:58:04 8,931 posts
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    This is quite an interesting take on it, and probably touches on most of my thoughts as I played through it.



    I too would have also been happy if it ended around the 16 hour mark like the original. Might have even played it through again if it was. Going to trade it in today I think.

    Edited by ZuluHero at 09:58:29 03-07-2020
  • Switch-v85 3 Jul 2020 11:35:41 3,915 posts
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    He lost me as soon as he called the gameplay outdated and the story a complete mess.

    The gameplay is sublime, yes it's fundamentally the same as the first game but it's been expertly refined. There's a number of ways any combat encounter can go. I've played through some of same combat encounters quite a few times now and they almost always play out differently.

    The story is also so much more than just a "petty revenge story" and reducing it to that base level is ridiculous. Revenge is the drive for the story but it's about much more than that, if it's ultimately about anything it's empathy.

    Edited by Switch024 at 11:36:56 03-07-2020
  • ZuluHero 3 Jul 2020 11:45:40 8,931 posts
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    I would say it's more about cycles and breaking them.
  • Switch-v85 3 Jul 2020 12:12:01 3,915 posts
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    Absolutely, it's a core theme. But whether the game works or not ultimately rests on developing a connection with Abby and being able to empathise with her.

    Edited by Switch024 at 12:13:10 03-07-2020
  • Bichii 3 Jul 2020 12:39:29 3,179 posts
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    The fight between ellie and Abby at the theatre is so well done..the animations in both of their faces is incredible. Ellie is one sneaky bitch. :)
  • ZuluHero 3 Jul 2020 14:15:20 8,931 posts
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    It was a bit unfair with the instant death though.
  • neems 4 Jul 2020 00:56:58 4,861 posts
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    muddyyfunster wrote:

    5) The ludonarrative disonance was still present, if not even worse than before. I thought it was brave that Naughty Dog wanted to show the consequences of the killing and giving henchmen names and showing the other side was novel. However by never giving the player the option to avoid murder it lost it's power. I never actively chose to kill whilst in control, therefore I didn't personally feel bad like they intended. To start with I had just about accepted that it was 'kill or be killed' as the WLF opened fire first, but increasingly it became mindless needless murder. Furthermore the characters never seemed as affected as they should have been by their actions (if that was supposed to be the message). All of them should have been utterly traumatised and dehumanised if they were going to be consistent. By Abby's day 3 I just kept thinking you've suffered THE worst, most horrific 48hrs in the history of mankind, how are you not broken?

    I'd like to see another sequel for the PS5, but this time make it a bit less bleak. We know violence is bad and humans are awful, but give us a bit of hope and some options. Personally I'd like them to follow Abby or Lev and the Fire Flies and the search for the cure. A quest to find Ellie and persuade her to sacrifice herself, or even Ellie taking the iniative and seeking a surgeon as a redemption arc would both be nice directions to take things.

    Edited by muddyyfunster at 16:39:39 02-07-2020
    There was an early moment with Nora, and of course the final confrontation with Abby, that I think would have worked better as cut scenes. I didn't want to fight Abby at the end, and it isn't making a point if they're forcing me to do it against my will. It went on far too long, and was just all around horrible. I genuinely hated it.

    The first fight between the two (playing as Abby) the first thing I did was let her kill me, which logically would be the end of it, everybody pack up and go home. I would rather have played as Ellie and lost the fight.

    With a lot of editing I think it could have been great. It almost felt like it was written to be episodic - I wonder if Druckmann's involvement in the tv show had any bearing on that?

    I'm glad I played it, but a bit of a missed opportunity I think.
  • Derblington 4 Jul 2020 01:25:55 33,438 posts
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    I didn't want to fight Abby at the end, and it isn't making a point if they're forcing me to do it against my will. It went on far too long, and was just all around horrible. I genuinely hated it.
    You sure?
  • neems 4 Jul 2020 03:08:38 4,861 posts
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    Derblington wrote:
    I didn't want to fight Abby at the end, and it isn't making a point if they're forcing me to do it against my will. It went on far too long, and was just all around horrible. I genuinely hated it.
    You sure?
    Unless their point was 'isn't violence terrible when video game developers force you to do it to justify the time and money you've invested' then yes. I literally let Abby kill me. Then danced around for ages just dodging. Then tried just doing the QTEs. In the end I just powered through it - perhaps I should have turned it off and never come back, but come on. I don't think it taught me anything about the horror of violence, other than Naughty Dog really, really love it.
  • Derblington 4 Jul 2020 09:41:55 33,438 posts
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    Making you do something you’re not happy with is part of the effect. You wanting it to play out differently because you disagree with the character choices is part of the effect. You watching them do it in a cutscene wouldn’t change the direction of the narrative or be less uncomfortable, it just removes the interaction of you being involved in the process. That suggests that the effect is working. To suggest that it can only be effective if the player chooses to engage is very odd.

    If all you’re taking away is “violence is bad but ND love it” then you’ve missed a lot, but there’re plenty of posts in here and all over the net about the themes of the game.

    It’s not an RPG with morality options. The character choices aren’t player owned, they’re played out through a locked narrative (the same as most other works of fiction...). It’s their story (Ellie’s and Abby’s, and NDs), not yours. Whether you like what it does or not is 100% up to you, but making you uncomfortable by being complicit in their choices is the intent.
  • Mola_Ram 4 Jul 2020 10:06:46 24,022 posts
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    My response to a game that forces me to be complicit in doing violence, only to then tell me how terrible doing violence is... is to not play the game at all.

    Like how I've not played this game. And I've absorbed enough information about it to know that I don't ever want to play it. Fair play to people who liked it, but I don't think it is for me.

    EDIT: Maybe that was a bit harsh. I played and loved Far Cry 2, which also felt like a deconstruction of video game tropes around violence and savior narratives. But from what I've heard, this game looks like it pushes it a bit far.

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 10:14:10 04-07-2020
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