The Last of Us 2 SPOILER DISCUSSION. Page 17

  • eshy76 16 Jul 2020 16:15:55 203 posts
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    I've been reading some of the comments in the last few pages...I completed this a few weeks ago. I was one of those that thought the story was mostly excellent and the internal logic mostly held.

    On Abby, I think it is fascinating that they made her a very muscular woman. Again completely in-line with the game story and logic. She's army, she wants to take on Joel, so she buffs up. All makes sense, but I wonder if her appearance was a barrier to a lot of people making that empathetic step towards understanding her motivations. It shouldn't be, but I do wonder.

    For me, I did end up empathizing with her insofar that I totally understood why she took revenge on Joel. I had no beef with her in the end, whereas I hated her right after the Joel scene and couldn't wait to smash her face in! In the end, though, I was still very much team Ellie and did still want to finish Abby off, if only to validate leaving that idyllic life with Dina and JJ!

    My problem with the game is that I personally never grew to like Abby and therefore wished her section was much shorter (though objectively her sections were great gameplay wise). And the one part where the story did not ring true for me, was Ellie killing all and sundry without blinking to get to Abby, before choosing to spare her. Though I suppose the Rattlers were painted as all evil, to make them less redeemable than Abby, I guess?

    But I loved the boldness of the game - the Abby gamble, with ND saying "can you be made to empathize with a character who looks like this, who killed a very dear character?" I'd never been taken on that journey in a game before and loved that, even if I did not quite end up liking Abby (I don't think the story needs you to like her, just understand her).

    Sorry for the long post!
  • Derblington 16 Jul 2020 16:17:43 34,422 posts
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    To elaborate a bit on the prophet stuff - Lev tells Abby about her dying when they’re climbing the skyscraper, and explaining how after she died the Seraphites twisted her words and took a more fanatical turn, which is why they are now what they are. When the prophet was alive it was a peaceful group.

    Edited by Derblington at 16:18:17 16-07-2020
  • SolidSCB 16 Jul 2020 16:25:51 14,602 posts
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    I might be getting my wires crossed but I'm sure it's alluded to that she bombed the military at some point and that's how she developed a following.
  • Rogueywon 16 Jul 2020 16:28:12 10,704 posts
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    @SolidSCB That was the WLF, wasn't it? I thought I'd seen a log (pretty early, maybe on Ellie day 2) that suggested she'd been an organiser for a local community that was miraculously untouched by infection.
  • SolidSCB 16 Jul 2020 16:31:23 14,602 posts
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    I'm sure Abby said something about it when they discussed Lev's faith. I think it was in the skyscraper. I may be wrong though, it was a long game!

    Seraphites were probably the best addition to the series in this one. Their communicative whistling was intimidating as fuck.
  • Dolly 16 Jul 2020 18:56:22 3,647 posts
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    This is a fucking mad thought and is probably taking the 'play as the enemy' concept way too far, but imagine playing a tiny section as a clicker in Part III. If anyone could pull it off, I reckon ND could. I imagine it looking like a mainly black and muted colour screen that 'pings' out in a kind of sonar-like display when you press X to do that fucking horrible scream-thing they do.
    Can just picture being part of an army of them descending on Jackson in the intro, fucking up the locals until you get axed in the face by Ellie, then take over as her.
  • GiarcYekrub 16 Jul 2020 18:58:11 4,759 posts
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    Switch024 wrote:
    That's ultimately what makes the game so impressive in my eyes, that they managed to successfully flip my feelings by the end of the game was genius and something I didn't believe they would be able to do. I absolutely hated playing as Abby those first few sessions.
    See that's where the game fails for me, it didn't come close, if I was controlling Ellie I'd have off'd Abby without hesitation.
    To redeem Abby imo they'd probably have to of had Ellie & Abby face a common enemy and work together to defeat it/them, so maybe if they team'd up against the Ratlers it could have work but that still requires me to play though hours of tedious Abby plot I had no investment in
  • ZuluHero 16 Jul 2020 19:06:16 9,708 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    I'm sure Abby said something about it when they discussed Lev's faith. I think it was in the skyscraper. I may be wrong though, it was a long game!

    Seraphites were probably the best addition to the series in this one. Their communicative whistling was intimidating as fuck.
    She does talk about it but lev corrects her. It just shows the propaganda between the two groups, especially over which one broke the cease fire.
  • Tomo 17 Jul 2020 00:58:55 18,835 posts
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    Just finished it. Thought it was a goddamn masterpiece. Good grief. What a raft of emotions. That final fight was horrific. I just wanted to put the controller down. Don't think I've ever felt that in all my years of killing virtual people. One of the very best games.
  • gammonbanter 17 Jul 2020 06:35:17 2,149 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    I was talking to a friend earlier who just finished it today and we disagreed on the core story but he raised another very good point I wasn't really focused on in my playthrough, in just how sidelined and trivial the infected are in this one.

    It's like, in The Last of Us 1, the whole game is a journey over the course of a year. A journey that is presented as the danger itself and many of the characters are killed off by the infected. But in this one, no major character dies from a bite and I count at least 6 or 7 different journeys the main characters make that span hundreds of not thousands of miles at a time. These journeys are suddenly a triviality which also kind of makes the anger Ellie feels towards Joel redundant as well. If the infected are so little of a threat that people can just up and leave to travel across the country as they see fit, why is it so important that it's cured at all? It's things like this.

    I can't take credit for having this thought but in hindsight it's another irregularity that is pretty core to the in-game logic itself.
    Absolutely, great point! Also, say they do knock up a cure / vaccine! If you get grabbed by one of those bastards you've pretty much had it, a vaccine won't help when you're getting your throat ripped out!

    Also, yeah, 370 million or so people in the states, where the hell is everyone??

    I really enjoyed playing the game for the most part and actually quite enjoy talking and reading about it too!

    Edited by gammonbanter at 06:38:20 17-07-2020
  • Frogofdoom 17 Jul 2020 06:48:42 17,220 posts
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    I would imagine a lot of the people are assumed to be dead by that point. That criticism would apply far more to the first game than the second.
  • Tomo 17 Jul 2020 09:20:13 18,835 posts
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    Dolly wrote:
    You lot are all crackers, it's fucking brilliant.
    This is my take home from reading back through this thread. Wow. Had no idea the game was so polarising.

    I'm pleased to say my emotional trajectory was seemingly completely aligned with the devs intent. I was fully Team Joel+Ellie at the beginning. Thought Abby was callous and not particularly likeable, but gradually wavered as Ellie became more and more of a monster and we got to know Abby. Seeing Abby on the pillar at the end with Lev was gut-wrenching. Then when Ellie put the knife to Lev's throat, I felt ashamed. I was so glad when Ellie released her grip on Abby during the drowning. And the shot of Ellie sitting in the water looking out to sea just captured the mood perfectly: what a fucking waste.

    My girlfriend watched me play the entire thing. She didn't watch me play the first. Interestingly, she thought Ellie was awful for a lot of it. Much preferred Abby and her friends. She thought Abby's choices were much more justifiable, given Joel killed her dad.

    Overall, I don't think anyone really comes out of it well, but their actions are all understandable. The whole thing is a beautifully constructed and disastrous butterfly effect.
  • DUFFMAN5 17 Jul 2020 09:59:32 26,466 posts
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    I completed Left Behind this morning (around 04:30 no less!) Second or possibly third playthrough, although first time on ps4 and first time in years. With the second game now out (and completed) I think it makes this mini chapter carry even more weight than before and I loved it and loved spending time with Ellie and Riley. I do like that a lot of the references and essence of Ellie carry through to part2.

    Now for a very different PS exclusive in GoT
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 11:35:53 14,602 posts
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    gammonbanter wrote:
    SolidSCB wrote:
    I was talking to a friend earlier who just finished it today and we disagreed on the core story but he raised another very good point I wasn't really focused on in my playthrough, in just how sidelined and trivial the infected are in this one.

    It's like, in The Last of Us 1, the whole game is a journey over the course of a year. A journey that is presented as the danger itself and many of the characters are killed off by the infected. But in this one, no major character dies from a bite and I count at least 6 or 7 different journeys the main characters make that span hundreds of not thousands of miles at a time. These journeys are suddenly a triviality which also kind of makes the anger Ellie feels towards Joel redundant as well. If the infected are so little of a threat that people can just up and leave to travel across the country as they see fit, why is it so important that it's cured at all? It's things like this.

    I can't take credit for having this thought but in hindsight it's another irregularity that is pretty core to the in-game logic itself.
    Absolutely, great point! Also, say they do knock up a cure / vaccine! If you get grabbed by one of those bastards you've pretty much had it, a vaccine won't help when you're getting your throat ripped out!

    Also, yeah, 370 million or so people in the states, where the hell is everyone??

    I really enjoyed playing the game for the most part and actually quite enjoy talking and reading about it too!
    Its like towards the end, Ellie gets impaled. We spend a significant portion of the game in TLoU with Joel incapacitated with a similar injury and subsequent infection. Fuck, there's an entire DLC focused around that section. But in this one despite visually losing a shit ton of blood and being filthy enough to believably get sepsis from a grazed knee, she's able to not only continue her mission, but travel hundreds of miles home straight afterwards, when she has that injury AND two of her fingers bitten off too.

    It's completely contradictory to how difficult it is to survive in the first one. You've got to constantly suspend your disbelief and ignore the rules THEY created because it's suddenly not important.
  • ZuluHero 17 Jul 2020 12:09:38 9,708 posts
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    @Tomo yeah, that was largely my take away as well.
  • Tricky 17 Jul 2020 14:00:29 5,079 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    gammonbanter wrote:
    SolidSCB wrote:
    I was talking to a friend earlier who just finished it today and we disagreed on the core story but he raised another very good point I wasn't really focused on in my playthrough, in just how sidelined and trivial the infected are in this one.

    It's like, in The Last of Us 1, the whole game is a journey over the course of a year. A journey that is presented as the danger itself and many of the characters are killed off by the infected. But in this one, no major character dies from a bite and I count at least 6 or 7 different journeys the main characters make that span hundreds of not thousands of miles at a time. These journeys are suddenly a triviality which also kind of makes the anger Ellie feels towards Joel redundant as well. If the infected are so little of a threat that people can just up and leave to travel across the country as they see fit, why is it so important that it's cured at all? It's things like this.

    I can't take credit for having this thought but in hindsight it's another irregularity that is pretty core to the in-game logic itself.
    Absolutely, great point! Also, say they do knock up a cure / vaccine! If you get grabbed by one of those bastards you've pretty much had it, a vaccine won't help when you're getting your throat ripped out!

    Also, yeah, 370 million or so people in the states, where the hell is everyone??

    I really enjoyed playing the game for the most part and actually quite enjoy talking and reading about it too!
    Its like towards the end, Ellie gets impaled. We spend a significant portion of the game in TLoU with Joel incapacitated with a similar injury and subsequent infection. Fuck, there's an entire DLC focused around that section. But in this one despite visually losing a shit ton of blood and being filthy enough to believably get sepsis from a grazed knee, she's able to not only continue her mission, but travel hundreds of miles home straight afterwards, when she has that injury AND two of her fingers bitten off too.

    It's completely contradictory to how difficult it is to survive in the first one. You've got to constantly suspend your disbelief and ignore the rules THEY created because it's suddenly not important.
    Nah you're over-thinking it.

    For the journey stuff, of course it wasn't that easy but that wasn't the point of the game, so they don't show that stuff. Standard narrative omission which is no different to the first game's gaps between seasons.

    As for how badly injured she is and yet still able to carry on, yeah sure it's unlikely but not inconceivable. Ellie's totally capable of raiding a few pharmacies on her travels to get hold of antibiotics but, again, it's not important to the story so no need to show it.
  • Tomo 17 Jul 2020 14:29:30 18,835 posts
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    Yeah, gotta agree. Criticising the 20 gallons of blood that each character seemed to possess and chameleon-like ability to regenerate their wounds seems like nitpicking to me. Where do you draw the line? Ellie and Abby are able to get shot several times in combat and then heal back to full health with a little first aid kit.
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 14:42:29 14,602 posts
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    Its not nitpicking when the last game literally outlines how hard it is to survive. It's quite clear in-game occurrences of being shot and cutscene variations are massively different by design in pretty much every game ever made, including this one so that doesn't hold weight.

    Like how are we supposed to believe Ellie, Dina and Tommy make it safely home when Ellie has a broken arm and has been savagely beaten, Dina is having a difficult pregnancy, an arrow through the shoulder and has also been savagely beaten and Tommy has been shot through the head and taken an arrow to the leg? Not forgetting the fact their horses had already been executed earlier. It's an absolutely glaring plot hole and outright poor writing. These things can't just be handwaved away when the world and it's dangers has already been established.
  • ZuluHero 17 Jul 2020 14:53:37 9,708 posts
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    Dina was just a bit 'morning' sick, she wasn't having a difficult pregnancy.
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 14:55:39 14,602 posts
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    She was incapacitated and sleeping for practically half of her arc. Doesn't lend weight to her travelling across the country. That's without the injuries.
  • ZuluHero 17 Jul 2020 15:09:07 9,708 posts
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    They over egged it for sure, but it's in-line with what a lot of women go through at around week 4 - my partner was pretty useless in that time as well and she was only 24 at the time, so even young people can really suffer.

    If you read Ellie's journal, it took around 3 weeks to get to Seattle so the timings fit. The journal also addresses that there is a lot of time passage between scenes, which should be enough really, personally I can't believe that this is becoming such a 'big' issue.
  • Switch-v85 17 Jul 2020 15:10:46 4,249 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    It's an absolutely glaring plot hole and outright poor writing. These things can't just be handwaved away when the world and it's dangers has already been established.
    Honestly it just seems like you're on a mission to find faults at this point. Compared to the first game things can be a little bit messy but it's also infintely more ambitious. The constantant griping is massively tedious.
  • Tricky 17 Jul 2020 15:11:49 5,079 posts
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    Yeah but using the first game as your yardstick doesn't work either. Like, how was a 14 year old girl able to drag an unconscious fully-grown man into safety/hiding? Well, maybe the snow on the ground helped slide him a bit? Doesn't matter - it's not intrinsic to the narrative so it's not shown. How was Joel able to survive being impaled? Just lucky that it didn't go through major organs, we guess - again, it's not narratively important.

    The second game doesn't indicate how much time has passed between the last scene we see in Seattle and then seeing Ellie and Dina at home, but you have to allow for the fact that they probably didn't immediately head straight home given the condition they were in. Sure they had the deadline of around 5-6 months that they'd want to get home in to be there before the baby was born, but that still gives them time to hole up in Seattle and recover somewhat before leaving.

    After all the WLF and the Seraphites just utterly decimated their own numbers so they would likely have been safe from being found by any of them.
  • Rogueywon 17 Jul 2020 15:13:13 10,704 posts
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    It's possible, just possible, that these games are, at heart, big, dumb blockbusters that can't really stand up to this level of nitpicking (and shouldn't be expected to).
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 15:18:41 14,602 posts
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    But it is shown in TLoU1. Joel is dragged by the horse on a makeshift stretcher.
  • Tricky 17 Jul 2020 15:22:05 5,079 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    But it is shown in TLoU1. Joel is dragged by the horse on a makeshift stretcher.
    Yeah I may be misremembering but I seem to remember said horse getting shot. Might have been in Left Behind maybe?

    Regardless, good one on ignoring the other points :-)
  • ZuluHero 17 Jul 2020 15:24:38 9,708 posts
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    Maybe he's having a difficult pregnancy? ;)
  • PazJohnMitch 17 Jul 2020 15:26:51 16,569 posts
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    Rogueywon wrote:
    It's possible, just possible, that these games are, at heart, big, dumb blockbusters that can't really stand up to this level of nitpicking (and shouldn't be expected to).
    I would normally agree with you but Neil Druckman got pissy when people suggested that it should be compared to a dumb blockbuster and not Schindler’s List. So as far as I am concerned if anything we are not remotely nitpicky enough.

    Edited by PazJohnMitch at 15:29:08 17-07-2020
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 15:29:08 14,602 posts
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    At the end of the day its stupid, doubly so when you take into account both the genre and source material. "Just ignore it" isn't a valid counterpoint whenever something stupid, implausible and immersion breaking happens, nor is the fact the game is trying to say something profound an armour for which the game isn't allowed to be called out when it is logic breaking.
  • Rogueywon 17 Jul 2020 15:30:33 10,704 posts
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    @PazJohnMitch Fair point.

    Druckmann's been accelerating up the industry's arsehole-scale pretty fast over the last couple of months, hasn't he? At the current rate of acceleration, he'll be catching up with Randy Pitchford by the end of the year.
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