The Last of Us 2 SPOILER DISCUSSION. Page 18

  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 15:35:09 14,600 posts
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    From what I've seen that's been pulled from Twitter, he's been a complete and utter manchild about any criticism. When you've already been part of a pretty shady bit of false advertising and questionable ethics over review policy, it's probably a good idea to show a bit of humility. Especially when he himself said it was going to be divisive.
  • Rogueywon 17 Jul 2020 15:37:39 10,704 posts
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    @SolidSCB I'd ordinarily be inclined to cut somebody a bit of slack when they've just come out of years in the kind of working conditions that creating TLOU2 entailed. Except Druckmann was the one who created those conditions so... no...
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 15:40:24 14,600 posts
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    It was actually a bit unsettling that the last two hours had a theme of human slavery running through it. You've got to wonder whether the people working on it felt like it was bad joke.
  • Switch-v85 17 Jul 2020 15:42:20 4,249 posts
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    Getting ridiculous this thread.
  • Rogueywon 17 Jul 2020 15:48:26 10,704 posts
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    I'm not quite sure I'd describe the conditions at Naughty Dog as slavery...
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 15:49:25 14,600 posts
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    It's called a discussion, the last few posts of which weren't even about the quality of the game. If you're having such a hard time not having everyone else reaffirm your opinion, did you even like it as much as you claim to?
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 15:50:22 14,600 posts
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    Rogueywon wrote:
    I'm not quite sure I'd describe the conditions at Naughty Dog as slavery...
    Quite obviously not, just a touch ironic.
  • Switch-v85 17 Jul 2020 16:20:36 4,249 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    It's called a discussion, the last few posts of which weren't even about the quality of the game. If you're having such a hard time not having everyone else reaffirm your opinion, did you even like it as much as you claim to?
    Your arguments against the game have started to get silly and now you've made a comparison between the crunch culture at Naughty Dog and slavery. Ironic or not, it's just a stupid thing to say.
  • Tomo 17 Jul 2020 16:52:52 18,835 posts
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    Switch024 wrote:
    Getting ridiculous this thread.
    Yep.
  • Tomo 17 Jul 2020 16:53:51 18,835 posts
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    What is the supposed "false advertising" and "questionable ethics over review policy" about? That is a genuine question (albeit admittedly laced with suspicion).
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 16:59:29 14,600 posts
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    I pointed out the irony in including a scene about slavery in a game that has been developed by a crew that were made to work ridiculous unpaid hours under distressing conditions in order to complete it. That's it. At no point have I said the dev team are slaves.

    Every point I've made has had some sort of evidence to back it up. Not once have I said "I don't like this because reasons", I've used the source content to formulate whether certain sections of the game were believable or made sense to me. Go look on the rest of the internet, there are plenty of people who share the same viewpoint, I'm just one of the only ones here. I'm entitled to do so and I've never once been as condescending towards anyone else as people have to me in doing so.

    The fact is I'm never going to change your opinion and nor are you going to change mine. That's not the intention, I've specifically said I'm not here to shit on anyone's opinion. There's a reason there's a dedicate spoiler thread for this game and not every game that is ever released. It's supposed to be thought provoking and warrant discussion. If my problems aren't your problems then great, but we're all here trying to make sense of the content we've just consumed and just because I don't agree that this was a well written game doesn't mean I don't read the posts of people who thought it was and take any interest in them.
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 17:06:03 14,600 posts
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    Tomo wrote:
    What is the supposed "false advertising" and "questionable ethics over review policy" about? That is a genuine question (albeit admittedly laced with suspicion).
    I didn't watch a single trailer ahead of this game so I'm talking retroactively here, but the gist of it is that they placed Joel their advertising and in scenes where he was already dead to make it look like he was a bigger part of the game than he was. It was sold as a Joel and Ellie tale and Druckmann specifically stated Ellie was the only playable character.

    I don't think the second part of that is a big deal personally, Kojima did the same with MGS2 and I'd be a hypocrite to say it ruined my enjoyment of that game. But the first part is just downright lying and deception.

    As for the reviews, it's a long one but basically the pre-release reviews don't marry in any way with the post ones. It received universal acclaim before release when reviewers were only allowed to talk about Ellie's part in the story, then more mixed ones after release. There is also a gigantic discrepancy between critic and user reviews. That's before we mention Sony going on a massive censorship spree. There are a lot of YouTube videos that explain this much better than my layman version, but they have been very shady in ensuring this game was 'received' as well as it was.

    Edited by SolidSCB at 17:06:27 17-07-2020
  • Tomo 17 Jul 2020 17:22:50 18,835 posts
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    Ok, tinfoil hat territory then, right.
  • Switch-v85 17 Jul 2020 17:26:06 4,249 posts
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    Damn. Looks like I forgot to bring my tinfoil hat.

    Itís obvious why they wouldnít want reviewers talking about the switch to Abby. Itís a key moment in the game and knowing itís coming would massively reduce itís impact.
  • Rogueywon 17 Jul 2020 17:26:23 10,704 posts
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    I confess, if I hadn't accidentally stumbled across the leaked spoilers on the day they hit the net, then Joel being killed off early when I'd thought he was going to be there right through the game would have been a really nice surprise.

    Hiding plot points isn't false advertising. Not even close.

    I do think some reviewers got rather caught up in the hype on the game and have rated it higher than it deserves (I'd put it in the solid 7 to 8 range, but no higher), but that happens a lot with AAA games, particularly the more pretentious ones.
  • Tomo 17 Jul 2020 17:36:29 18,835 posts
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    Pretentious...?! Coming from someone whose favourite game of the generation is a cartoon about Japanese school kids. Rightttt...
  • Rogueywon 17 Jul 2020 17:50:23 10,704 posts
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    @Tomo Hey, you picked Pubey-Gee. Not pretentious, I'll grant you that. Definitely not pretentious. Pretentious would be an improvement. :)
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 17:52:18 14,600 posts
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    Hiding plot points isn't what I said. They deliberately put Joel into cutscenes he wasn't in, and changed his character model to look his current age in flashback scenes to make it look like he was a bigger part of the game than he was.

    I also literally said I don't think them hiding Abby's part is a big deal.

    The review thing is all out there. It isn't tinfoil hat and simply ignoring what is being done will only create a wider gap between reviewer and user experience in the future.
  • Rogueywon 17 Jul 2020 17:55:29 10,704 posts
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    @SolidSCB A huge part of the critic/user score disparity is down to alt-right nutjobs review-bombing it, surely?

    I note also some of the critic reviews came out about where I did, albeit sometimes for different reasons. Gamespot gave it an 8 and while Kotaku don't give scores, they were lukewarm on it.
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 17:58:39 14,600 posts
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    @Rogueywon Obviously there is always going to be a discrepancy to a certain degree because of idiots, but for this game the gap between both the pre-release/post-release critical reviews and broader critical reviews/user reviews is absolutely gigantic.
  • Tomo 17 Jul 2020 18:10:28 18,835 posts
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    Nnnrghh. I think I've had enough internet for today.
  • Derblington 17 Jul 2020 18:14:31 34,421 posts
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    Adding Joel into a single scene to hide the fact heís dead at that point is exactly hiding a plot point. Itís nowhere near false-advertising, and itís only the idiots online that are livid that Joel died that are calling it that because theyíve got a weird axe to grind because they donít like that he died. To Abby. Whoís built.

    The review stuff is total shite too, and a load of reviewers have already spoken out about how dumb it is. Including Skill-up, who was one of the ones that didnít like the game.

    It also wasnít Druckman that compared Part 2 being like Schindlerís List, it was someone else on Twitter who said something along the lines of Ďif video games are typically John Wick, TLoUPt2 is Schindlerís ListĒ, and that spun up into a weird argument because you shouldnít compare a game to a real event like the holocaust, even though that wasnít what was actually done.

    Iím with the othersí opinionís that your criticisms about Ellieís wound vs Joelís is nit-picky at best. The sequence in the Part1 immediately had Joel basically useless, stumbling around and blacking out. He then recovered really fucking quick to go and save Ellie once he got some antibiotics though, there were zero lingering effects of the wound all stitched up or his lack of nutrition for however long heíd been out. He rolled straight out of bed and started wailing on dudes.

    Ellie got stuck by a tree branch, immediately into a fight, stitched herself up and then flinched every time she got hit in the side. Theyíre so far apart they arenít worth comparing.

    The criticism about the infected being a far less of a threat in Pt2 is the same kinda thing. Literally one person is turned in the first game, the other essentially kills herself - the infected are dangerous enemies to fight though and a lingering backdrop for the state of the world in both games.
    I get that you see All of this as ďbad writingĒ but it really seems like itís clutching at straws to pick holes in something thatís pretty consistent throughout. Far more consistent that you want to give it credit for.
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 18:32:52 14,600 posts
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    I'll call it a day here and let you have your echo chamber. It seems like every point I've made either somehow makes me of a lower intelligence, petty to question them, or both at the same time.

    The Last of Us Part II: That Doesn't Matter Unless I Say So
  • ZuluHero 17 Jul 2020 18:49:44 9,708 posts
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    Aww, you might even say it's the... Last of Us? ;)

    /micdrop
  • Derblington 17 Jul 2020 18:53:42 34,421 posts
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    You have valid criticism on structure, etc, but the things above are trivial at best, though I really donít think theyíre valid criticism at all.

    The injuries are totally different. Theyíre presented totally differently in the event and the gameplay around them. Joelís is clearly more significant. Ellie is in pain but she stitches herself up and deals with it. Youíre actively ignoring all of that to make a point that theyíre the same, and layering in stuff like blood loss and sepsis to emphasize believability. Itís presented a very specific way that is different to Joelís injury so itís clearly not the same thing.
  • SolidSCB 17 Jul 2020 19:30:06 14,600 posts
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    Completely fair point, it isn't as significant an injury and won't have been as much of a life or death issue, but it's used as a plot point in the game and pointed out a good few times that she's caused herself significant injury so it's worth a mention.

    What about Ellie, Dina and Tommy making it home? Without horses and at least in Tommy's case with grave, life altering injuries? It's just daft how little of a threat the world outside the things they want to specifically emphasise on is framed as. It's contradictory and inconsistent. I don't see how it can be in any way called petty to ask how the hell those guys ever made it home. Calling everything invalid doesn't automatically make it invalid.

    If this game presented itself as a bit daft and not to be taken overly seriously that would be one thing, but it is clearly made with the intent to give the characters as much life and provoke as much thought about it as it possibly can. Yet I'm also culpable when I think about things. Suddenly I'm thinking about the wrong things and being stupid. Like I said, a game made to defend itself at times.
  • Dolly 17 Jul 2020 19:38:08 3,647 posts
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    If we're running with batshit conspiracies in this thread now, I'd just like to point out a massive plot hole in that no one's ever been to the moon if you ask Spazzy Darren down my local, so that museum section is all bollocks.
    Fucking Druckmann.
  • ZuluHero 17 Jul 2020 19:50:02 9,708 posts
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    And don't get me started on Dinosaurs...
  • Derblington 17 Jul 2020 20:08:14 34,421 posts
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    We have no idea how they got back. Itís not contradictory or inconsistent, itís not a plot hole or bad writing - itís not written and all occurs off-screen. We donít know how long it took or what state they were in on the journey. I imagine they patched up as best as they could before moving, it took a while aNd was very difficult.

    Think up the most believable way you can imagine that they got home and that can be it. Itís not worth arguing because it really has no relevance to anything.
  • Carlo 17 Jul 2020 20:52:47 21,567 posts
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    Rogueywon wrote:
    I'm not quite sure I'd describe the conditions at Naughty Dog as slavery...
    DEV'S LIVES MATTER!
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